Readers' Discussions, Comments & Inquiries


Archived pages


SUBJECT:
Monkey King
COMMENT:
For those interested in the Monkey King, check out this tribute site to the Japanese TV show "Monkey" here: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/8153/
FROM:Howell Parry <owner-monkey@valinor.eldar.org>
- Tuesday, May 30, 2000 at 06:28:41 (PD
SUBJECT:
Orchid chinese paintings
COMMENT:
Dears sirs, I have started research on antique Chinese paintings involving orchids. I have heard that there are several antique chinese artist that were almost solely devoted to paint orchid themes. Please are you kind enough to let me know any source (names, books, etc) where I could learn more on that subject. Wish I knew chinese to do more research on that theme. Anyhow, thanks to all for such a great forum which I have been reading with lot of fascination since several month. Thanks in advance and greetings from Barcelona, Josep M.
FROM:Josep M Puig Verdura <si03446@salleURL.edu>
Barcelona, BCN Spain - Tuesday, May 30, 2000 at 02:35:26 (PD
SUBJECT:
Book art
COMMENT:
Dear Wendy,

You asked a very immense subject. It is hard to start on this discussion. If you are doing reserach, Joseph Needham's volumes should be the best reference.

The eaerliest books were in fact turtle shells. Other than fortune telling, they provide some important records of history which is a verification of the written books. Then came the bamboo strips or wood strips. To date, the word "book" (Shu) "volumes" (Ce) as written in Chinese still bear the mark of pieces of strips tied together.

Before printing, all books were written in handwritings. The calligraphy of the early handwritings were extremely elegant, showing the technology of brush and ink production was already quite developed. The ink ball made 2000 years ago still can give great and shining ink today when grounded with water. Calligraphy is a special art in China because of the symbolic nature of the written language. Please visit my website http://www.asiawind.com and this website to find out more on this subject.

If there is anything I can suggest, you might have to limit your scope a bit if it is a research paper. Or, you will never be able to finish the paper.
FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Monday, May 29, 2000 at 00:54:20 (PD


SUBJECT:
Chinese horse relics exhibit at Lexington
COMMENT:
Dear Friends,

I just went to Lexington this weekend to see the Imperial China exhibit of horse relics covering from Zhou dynasty to Qing dynasty. There are more than 300 items estimated value 300 million USD. Many are seen for the first time. It is a marvellous exhibit. It might go around the world but nobody knows. Since the sponsor is the Kentucky Horse Farm and Horse Museum, this is really most appropriate.

Many of the facts are missed by the Kentucky Horse Museum and the exhibit clearly shows the gaps, e.g. on the horse harnessing technique and stirrups,etc. were developed in China hundreds of years earlier. In fact, this may be the reason for the high development of the culture, through fast communication.


FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Monday, May 29, 2000 at 00:41:12 (PD


SUBJECT:
Comments on your webpage
COMMENT:
China the Beautiful is the best webpage that I've ever seen on the internet that covers almost all creamy parts of Chinese culture. I'll link it to my homepage to let more people who are interested in Chinese culture read it. Thank you for the excellent work. I wish more and more stories about China will appear on your website. The only place I see that needs some improvement is the first mainpage. Too much red and the density of the characters in table makes it crowded looking.
FROM:Laura Tu <ytu@cctr.umkc.edu>
Kansas city, MO USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 20:58:45 (PD
SUBJECT:
Printing, bookbinding, papermaking, calligraphy
COMMENT:

Dear Wendy

There was a discussion on Chinese wood block printing some time last year. I remember Dr. Siu-Leung Lee mentioning a recent news write-up of the earliest movable wood block in China. Prof. Pei has a good section of the world's earliest printed book called "The Diamond Sutra" plus other printed works in:
http://www.chinapage.org/print1.html
http://www.chinapage.org/print2.html

The discovery of printing could only follow the invention of the easily manufactured paper sheets by the Han Dynasty eunuch, Cai Lun ½²­Û , in AD 105. In his prototype, he used bark, hemp, rags and fine old fish net and pounded them up before layering. This was unlike the papyrus paper invented earlier by the Egyptians. Recently, the earliest paper fragments in China, made from raw silk, were found in the Gobi desert and dated back to second or third centuries BCE.

Jacques Gernet's "A history of Chinese Civilization" (Cambridge Press ISBN 0-521-49781-7) mentioned that the first wood block print was dated between AD 764-770 in the form of Buddhist pictures discovered in Dunhuang (Gansu Province of China). The Diamong Sutra, also discovered in Dunhuang, but now in the British Museum, is a complete text dated AD 868. Gernet wrote that Shen Kuo ²`¬A noted in his book ¹ÚµE·Ëµ§½Í in 1086, on the history of science and technology, that a protege, Bi Sheng ²¦ª@ , was the inventor of the movable characters around 1041-1048. Gernet also wrote that at the beginning of the seventeenth century, Matteo Ricci (Catholic priest in China) noticed that wood-block printers in China took no more time to engrave their blocks that the European typographers took to compose their page.

If you can read Chinese, you will be able to get resources from Chinese websites about the history of Chinese and Japanese printing. However, for English readers, the following books will be helpful: Joseph Needham's Science and Civilization in China ( Cambridge Univ. Press), The Cambridge Encyclopedia of China (ed. Brian Hook & D. Twitchett ISBN: 052135594X), The Cambridge History of China (section on Tang & Song Dynasties), Encyclopedia of China by Dorthy Perkins (Roundtable Press ISBN 0-8160-2693-9 newly published).

In regards to book binding, the books were usually sewn up with thread at the spine, even as late as early this century, both in China and Japan. As for calligraphy, Siu-Leung, Ming and Alfred are the experts, so I leave them to advise you which websites or books to find.

Tin-Kay

Chinese Graphic Art Printing Technology The World s earlist printed book The Diamond Sutra AD868 The British Library Story of Mulan Song Dynasty Book of Spring Fall Qianlong Qing URL:

FROM:Tin-Kay Goh <tgoh@bigpond.net.au>
Sydney, NSW Australia - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 08:59:18 (PD
SUBJECT:
book arts
COMMENT:
I am reseearching the book arts of China and Japan, looking for information on the history: bookbinding, papermaking, calligraphy. Also, why the earliest books were made, for what purpose, how did it fit into the culture. I'm finding info very hard to come by and would appreciate any help. Thanks.
FROM:Wendy <johnandwendy@earthlink.net>
Boca Raton, FL USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 06:28:13 (PD
SUBJECT:
COMMENT:
[Purged by Webmaster]
FROM:German Hun <storefact@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 01:18:05 (PD
SUBJECT:
Chindit and pagoda
COMMENT:

Dear Sherron Christmas

Your query about the Chindits should be directed to the websites related to Burmese history or British military history of the World War 2 (Burmese operational area).

The Chindits were a group of British-financed guerillas in WW2 working under the eccentric Brigadier Orde Wingate in Burma. Their aim was to disrupt the Japanese communication line between Myitkyina and Manadalay in North Burma near to the Chinese border. They were initially successful with assistance from the gliders provided by the US air force. Wingate was killed in an air crash soon after. Their mission, despite the initial success, proved futile and short of being encircled by the Japanese, they made back to India in small groups.

The American General, Joseph Stilwell, played an important role in trying to coordinate the military operation to link up the Alliance communication line between Yunnan and Burma to India. Wingate did not seem to get along well with his superior officers, and there was also hot air between the Americans military brass and the British command under Mountbatten. The glider drop to the Chindits was in such secrecy that it took Mountbatten by surprise.

How did the word Chindit come into use? I am not too sure about the relation to Pagoda, but you can refer to a Burmese dictionary for that. I think it is related to the Chin Hills that the Chindits set up their air-strip and base. Alternatively, it may have come from the Chindwin River, where they were operational.

Tin-Kay


FROM:Tin-Kay Goh <tgoh@bigpond.net.au>
Sydney, NSW Australia - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 21:56:55 (PD
SUBJECT:
Calligraphy, Chinese History & Lu Ban
COMMENT:

Dear Siu-Leung

Many thanks for elaborating on the Wang Xizhi, his widely accepted calligraphy work Lan Ting Xu, and the ongoing controversy about the actual authorship of Lan Ting Xu. For a non-calligraphist to discuss this esoteric subject with you is like showing off an axe to Lu Ban ¯Zªù§Ë©ò, so I will hasten to another topic, i.e. Chinese history.

I am amazed that, despite the early documentation of Chinese historical events around 800 BC, many purported historical persons and literary works are still subjected to a debate of their very origin or existence. The famous Spring and Autumn Annals were said to be written or compiled by Kongzi (Confucius), but many historians consider this as conjecture, because many scholars might have been involved.

Controversy still shrouds the three famous Daoist classics, the Daode Jing, the Zhuangzi and the Liezi. Even Laozi as a person is not well documented, despite references from many authors after him. We are only told to accept that he was the author of Daode Jing, and that he was a librarian in the imperial household. Zhuangzi claimed that Kongzi (Confucius) met Laozi, giving a truly momentous meeting of great minds, but later historians were not sure whether such a meeting took place. Zhuangzi, as a person also seemed vague, though he is more accepted as the author of the Zhuangzi, yet some parts may have been refined or added by later writers. Sima Qian, historian emeritus, gave an account of him as having the surname Zhou, born in Henan and served as an official in the Chu Kingdom. As for Liezi, there is even more controversy, for no one is sure whether there was a Liezi. It is more accepted that Liezi is a fictitious character and that the Liezi, supposedly written by him, is the works of some writers around AD 300.

The controversies should have stopped after Sima Qian started to put historical events on a firm and objective basis. Yet, the historical mists still continued down till the Song and Ming Dysnaty, when printed books become more prevalent than in the preceding dynasties. Hence so many great works on Chinese culture and medicine have no confirmed authorship. Chinese respect and reverence seem to play a part, because later writers always made reference to previous authors, works and events as unquestionable and accepted "facts", when these "facts" were not checked and documented. China was so vast that it may not be possible for a poor scholar to travel all over the country, checking on the sources. Despite the advantages of early historical documentation in the Zhou dynasty and the subsequent Chinese imperial obsession for historical documentation, there is still so much gap in ancient Chinese history.

BTW, the proverb ¯Zªù§Ë©ò (showing off the axe in front of Lu Ban, the Master Carpenter) has an interesting origin. The Ming scholar, Mei Zhihuan, ±ö¤§µA was very upset when he saw Li Bai's tomb in Anhui province being littered with inferior poems and names of visitors. So he wrote the poem "Dedicated to Li Bai's tomb" ÃD§õ¥Õ¹Ó :

ªö¥Û¦¿Ãä¤@°ï¤g,
§õ¥Õ¸Ö¦W°ª¤d¥j;
¨Ó¨Ó©¹©¹¤@­º¸Ö,
¾|¯Zªù«e§Ë¤j©ò.

At the river quarry under an earthly heap,
Was Li Bai, the illuminant poet of old;
Each visitor, leaving a poem, was like,
Showing off his axe skills to Lu Ban.

Tin-Kay


FROM:Tin-Kay Goh <tgoh@bigpond.net.au>
Sydney, NSW Australia - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 17:19:43 (PD
SUBJECT:
Mr. Yang-Xin/President of Palace Museum, Beijing
COMMENT:
Hi, cananyone help? I am desperately trying to send an e-mail or fax to Mr. Xin, who wrote the prologue to Jia Nan Wang's Complete Course of Chinese Painting. Would anyone have a clue how I can get in touch with either Mr. Xin or Mr. Nan Wang ? Pls advise. Any leads would be most helpful. I tried to look up Palace Museum in the internet but all I get is tourist sites or accounts of the Forbidden City. Thanks from Germany Ani de la Jara
FROM:Ani de la Jara <Adljara@aol.com>
Pappenheim, Germany - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 08:05:22 (PD
SUBJECT:
Learn to write Chinese
COMMENT:
There is a shareware program for anyone wanting to learn to write Chinese. Go to this website for details.
The program was rather old and written for DOS, but will work under Windows. You can download a free copy to try out, and register later if you like it.
I still wish we can have downloadable calligraphy study book on the Internet for all to use.
Ming

FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Friday, May 19, 2000 at 19:32:24 (PD
SUBJECT:
strange code? ¶À®x¸g ¼Ö¼Ý½×
COMMENT:
I don't know why it got the wrong code every time. It was clearly set to Big5. Once more time: ¶À®x¸g ¼Ö¼Ý½×¡C
FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Friday, May 19, 2000 at 15:54:56 (PD
SUBJECT:
Calligraphy for children - üSÍ¥½›, ˜·ÒãÕ“
COMMENT:
oops. Wrong ocding in the last post. It should be üSÍ¥½›, ˜·ÒãÕ“¡£These are good models for Kaishu.
FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Friday, May 19, 2000 at 15:51:06 (PD
SUBJECT:
Calligraphy for children
COMMENT:
Dear Ming,

I see what you need. If you are looking for Kaishu by Wang XiZhi, üSÍ¥¾­ and ˜·ÒãÕ“ would be good models for children. Whether it is really by Wang is still a question. I think it is most likely a fake. But it doesn't hurt though.


FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Friday, May 19, 2000 at 15:48:37 (PD


SUBJECT:
Wang XiZhi's calligraphy
COMMENT:
Dear SL:

When young childred begin to learn writing, they practise by imitation frim a ©« ¥» "sample book." These are usually sold in the bookstores. I am thinking of these. Should be kai shu ·¢ ®Ñ .
I thought of this, because I saw a few sample words on the Internet.
Ming

FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Friday, May 19, 2000 at 13:03:24 (PD


SUBJECT:
Thank you
COMMENT:
Ming L Pei. Thank you very much. Dean
FROM:Dean Hedley <hj207329@stmail.staffs.ac.uk>
Stoke, England - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:17:12 (PD
SUBJECT:
Wang XiZhi's calligraphy
COMMENT:
Dear Ming,

There are quite a lot of Wang XiZhi's calligraphy rubbings. I have quite a collection of them. But many do not come out good on scanning. Please see references at my calligraphy site:
http://www.asiawind.com/art/callig/index.htm
There are 8 copies of Lan Ting Xu, all by famous calligraphers in Tang dynesty (not original). The best rubbing of Lan Ting Xu are probably ­ð¯ð¤t¥» or ©wªZ¥» but the rubbings are too worn out. The most clear one is ¶¾©Ó¯À¥», but the strokes are too flowery and one page was misplaced in order (in my copy at least). It is not true to Wang's original to my opinion.
The best collection of Wang's calligraphy is by Beijing Classical publisher. ¥_¨Ê¥jÄy¥Xª©ªÀ¡C On just LanTing Xu, there is ªF®Ê¤ý¿ª¤§Äõ«F§Ç¤CºØ ¾ú¥Nªk®Ñ¿ï¿è ¥xÆW¤j²³®Ñ©± that includes 5 ink copies and 2 rubbings.

There was a site that has quite a few rubbings of the famous calligraphers, but I cannot find it any more.
Here is a site with the rubbing of Dingwu Ben :
http://www.nccu.edu.tw/museum/htm/123.htm

Here is a site about Wang's hometown museum:
http://wz.nx.cninfo.net/xj/WXZHI.htm

FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiwind.com>
- Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 17:54:18 (PD


SUBJECT:
Wang Xi Zhi and us
COMMENT:
Dear SL: Countless generations of Chinese have learned and studied writing from the masters. It occured to me that we should have good copies of ©« ¥» (to ben) of the masters on the Internet, so that younger generations can have easy access. What do you think?
With your vast collection of calligraphy books, will you suggest one or two?

Ming
FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 13:41:18 (PD


SUBJECT:
Chindit and pagoda
COMMENT:
Dear Sherron:

I have never heard of chindit. Will you tell us about it and what you know in other countries? After your stories, perhaps some thing will click. This Board is a two-way street, you know.

There are literally thousands of pagodas in China. Go to this site and veiw the photos.
Ming

FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 13:23:46 (PD


SUBJECT:
³½¤§¼Ö logic etc.

COMMENT:
< BTW, I will side with Zhuangzi about the happy fish debate.

Hey Ming, c'mon: what *is* your (and Chuang-tzu's) opinion on this logic? ;))))

Alfred ¶øÀs

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - ½º¹Ú²ª "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry


FROM:A.W. Tueting <Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de >
¼w°ê¼}¥§¶Â, - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 09:56:43 (PD
SUBJECT:
on-line learning
COMMENT:
Did any of you ever take some on-line learning programmes ? If yes, can you share your experience, knowledge and feeling after taking the courses ? Please send your opinion to fionato@hotmail.com. Thanks in advance. Fiona
FROM:fiona <fionato>
hk, china - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 06:08:31 (PD
SUBJECT:
on-line learning
COMMENT:
Did any of you ever take some on-line learning programmes ? If yes, can you share your experience, knowledge and feeling after taking the courses ? Please send your opinion to fionato@hotmail.com. Thanks in advance. Fiona
FROM:fiona <fionato>
hk, china - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 06:08:17 (PD
SUBJECT:
ZhuangZi, logic, etc
COMMENT:
I have added a webpage for Zhuangzi and happy fish at:
story/parable page in addition to the dreaming butterfly. More will come

I second S.L.'s sugggestion. Let us move the discussions to the Yahoo Club as this may go on (according to Zhuangzi himself) for ten thousand generations.

BTW, I will side with Zhungzi about the happy fish debate.

Ming
FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 18:35:51 (PD


SUBJECT:
Information on Chinthe(s)
COMMENT:
A nickname used by several nations squadrons is Chindit. I am able to find that this is a spin off of the Chinese word Chinthe. I understand that a chinthe was used to guard pagodas. Can anyone tell more more. What exactly is a Chinthe? What was there purpose? Is it true that they have 5 pieces that must be put together for them to be whole? I would appreciate any information, Thank you
FROM:Sherron Christmas <sherron.christmas@hurlburt.af.mil>
- Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 06:46:00 (PD
SUBJECT:
Palace of South Yue Kingdom found
COMMENT:
According to a recent report, the palace of the South Yue Kingdom has been found in Guangzhou when they tried to excavate to build a children's park. Details have not been released. but this will be one of the top 10 archaeological discoveries. South Yue Kingdom was founded at the fall of Qin dynasty more than 2000 years ago. It is the origin of Guangdong culture. There will be certainly a lot of news to cover this discovery. See :
http://chinese.yahoo.com/headlines/000517/china/ycwb/yaa517c005txtjryw00051701.html

FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 04:33:33 (PD
SUBJECT:
URL of our site
COMMENT:
the URL of md-art is http://www.md-art.com, please visit, thank you.
FROM:ding <kuding2000@yahoo.com>
Seattle, WA USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 05:20:55 (PD
SUBJECT:
Visit our site please
COMMENT:
m&d art represents and promotes international contemporary art, with special focus on Chinese contemporary art, we have a lot of artists, artworks and online exhibitions on our site, please visit if you are interested. thanks a lot. I appreciate if you can add our site to your links or search database. thanks a lot.
FROM:ding <kuding2000@yahoo.com>
Seattle, WA USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 05:14:45 (PD
SUBJECT:
Wang Xi Zhi, the Calligraphy genius
COMMENT:
Dear Tin-Kay,

I read your article on Wang Xi Zhi again. He is undoubtedly the most studied calligraphy artist indeed. His influence on calligraphy can be traced all through Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming, Qing. Almost all the key figures in calligraphy have some of Wang's elements in them.

Wang XiZhi's exact age is unknown. There are 3 versions of his age: 321-379 (58), 303-361 (58), 307-365(58). The most important piece of work "Lan Ting Xu" (The Prolog to the Orchid Pavillion Album) was composed in his fifties. There is a whole book about the authenticity of Lan Ting Xu. Guo MoRo, the famous archaeologist, artist, poet, and calligraphist, insisted that it was not Wang's own work. HIs interpretation is Wang's calligraphy should be more like LiShu(official script) than KaiShu (regular script). Nonetheless, Lan Ting Xu, authored by anybody, is still the standard for calligraphy.
FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 05:09:12 (PD


SUBJECT:
Chinese studies in Latin America
COMMENT:
Dear SL Lee- I wanted to thank you for your suggestion to visit the WWW Virtual Library. I'm sure it will yield promising results. Thanks again! Nicole
FROM:Nicole <pokey6262>
New York, NY USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 13:30:26 (PD
SUBJECT:
Chinese studies in Latin America
COMMENT:
Dear SL Lee- I wanted to thank you for your suggestion to visit the WWW Virtual Library. I'm sure it will yield promising results. Thanks again! Nicole
FROM:Nicole <pokey6262@hotmail.com>
New York, NY USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 13:29:25 (PD
SUBJECT:
Mandarin duck is a symbol of love
COMMENT:
Dear Dean:

Don't get me wrong. I wholly agree with all my friends here about mandarin ducks being symbols of love, ever since the beginning of time. I only wish that we have a prettier name for them in English.
Let me offer you the first two lines of the poems in Shijing here. They are quoted by S.L. and Alfred previously. If you have access to a color printer, you can print it out, and perhaps use it as gift wrapper to your girl friend.

FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Monday, May 15, 2000 at 10:50:34 (PD


SUBJECT:
Huizi and Zhuangzi
COMMENT:
Daer Alfred,

It is an interesting point that worth a bit of discussion. Huizi is Hui Shi, known as Ming Jia or YinYang Jia (school of logic and school of mathematics/astrology). He was really an ingenius mathematician and logician. Unfortunately, much of his work was lost. There is no single book attributed to his name. We can only find out about him from the works of Zhuangzi and other contemporary philosophers. I believe his philosophy should worth a significant research thesis. Huizi was famous for his debates with almost anybody, based on his rich imagination and logical thoughts. Because of that, sometimes he was mistaken to be arguing just for the sake of arguing. In the story about whether the fish was happily swimming in water, his role was in fact reversed with Zhuangzi. Yes, Zhuangzi was well known for his philosophy about life's uncertain meaning and uninterpretability, as expressed in his Dreaming of Butterflies (which you, Alfred, is so fond of to the extent of using it in naming your website :)). For a long time, we will probably not be able to find out what life is for, or how it happens, except resorting to the all mighty. We might think we are in charge, but in fact we are but a bunch of puppets/toys controlled by some superior force watching and playing on us. If we took this view, there would be nothing in this world that is worth commenting or fighting for. As we compare our short-lived lives with the age of the universe, it seems that everything we do is in vain. In fact, this is the basis for the hippie movement in the 1960-70s, which we all witnessed or participitated in some extent.

Science has allowed a more objective analysis of this world we are living in. We can detect the emotion of animals, and we can in some way find out whether a fish is really happy or not using some instruments. Emotion her is what we defined in human terms of course. So eventually, there is some answer rather than just a bunch of circular arguments. Of course, one can throw away all the theories behind emotion, and the mechanism of the the detecting machine, then there is nothing left to go by too. So, perhaps, if "right" or "wrong" are deemed inappropriate, then we may use "measurable meaning and purpose to the common understanding by human experience", and the modern computer terms "true" or "false". :) I wish everybody would particiapte in this disussion, an excellent topic on Chinese philosophy.
FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Monday, May 15, 2000 at 04:00:34 (PD


SUBJECT:
Thanks
COMMENT:
Thanks to everyone who wrote in response to my request. And to Ming L Pei, I thought it would be romantic because they are symbolic of love. However if you could suggest something more romantic then I would be appreciate your advice. Cheers Dean Hedley
FROM:Dean Hedley <hj207329@stmail.staffs.ac.uk>
Stoke, England - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 02:26:26 (PD
SUBJECT:
fish pleasure
right or wrong

COMMENT:
Dear Ming and Siu-Leung, thanks for your quick resonse.
S.L., I tend to agree with you that Hui-tzu was right (objective) and Chuang-tzu just tricky with words, yet, I'm hesitating again: aren't both right (and - sometimes - wrong too), maybe each one standing for one opposite method/school: deductive/inductive?! Both have to play together - like a soccer team's two players playing the ball to each other and thus bringing it into the goal ;). It's my own daily job too: being imaginative - and proof the result against reality.

Alfred ¶øÀs

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - ½º¹Ú²ª "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry


FROM:A.W. Tueting <Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de >
¼w°ê¼}¥§¶Â, - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 00:16:16 (PD
SUBJECT:
Zhuangzi was wrong, Huizi was right
COMMENT:
The article about the pleasure of fish has been around for 2000 years. Yet people are still debating in different variations, as in the case of Custody of Elian Gonzalez and whether his father is really telling the truth and likes to return to Cuba. In this case, I think Zhuangzi was merely demonstrating argument for the sake of argument. Huizi was speaking from an objective point of view.
FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 21:02:06 (PD
SUBJECT:
Happy fish
COMMENT:
Dear Alfred:

This is a famous conversation taken from Zhuangzi's "Autumn Outing on the Water." I have planned to add it to the "Story / parable" series.


FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 07:15:25 (PD


SUBJECT:
Happy fish - Zhuangzi
COMMENT:
Dear Alfred,

Here's what you are looking for:

²ø¤l ¬î¤ô¡@ p-0605
¡@¡@²ø¤l»P´f¤l¹C©óÀڱ礧¤W¡C²ø¤l¤ê¡G¡uñì³½¥X¹C±q®e¡A¬O³½¤§¼Ö¤]¡C¡v´f¤l¤ê¡G¡u¤l«D³½¡A¦wª¾³½¤§¼Ö¡S¡v²ø¤l¤ê¡G¡u¤l«D§Ú¡A¦wª¾§Ú¤£ª¾³½¤§¼Ö¡S¡v´f¤l¤ê¡G¡u§Ú«D¤l¡A©T¤£ª¾¤l¨o¡F¤l©T«D³½¤]¡A¤l¤§¤£ª¾³½¤§¼Ö¡A¥þ¨o¡C¡v²ø¤l¤ê¡G¡u½Ð´`¨ä¥»¡C¤l¤ê¡y¦¼¦wª¾³½¼Ö¡z¤ªªÌ¡A¬J¤wª¾§^ª¾¤§¦Ó°Ý§Ú¡A§Úª¾¤§ÀÚ¤W¤]¡C¡v

FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 06:24:22 (PD


SUBJECT:
³½¼Ö ?
COMMENT:
Dear friends, can anybody of you post the original Chinese version of this famous text? (BTW,the translation on the left is the constructed language Glosa, invented by Prof. Lancelot Hogben - Interglossa, GB, 1943 - and modified by Ron Clark und Wendy Ashby - GB, 1972-1992. It's based on Latin, Greek, some German and English vocabulary, and mostly following the logic of Chinese 'isolated' structure of words and syntax. The translation is copyright 1994 by Ron Clark und Wendy Ashby - I myself only corrected a few typos.)

PISKI HEDO

Chuangtze e Huitze pa gresi
ad-epi ponti supra Hao; kron
u-la pa dice;
"Vide, komo plu piski sagita ci
e la! U-la es piski hedo!"

"Tu auto ne es u piski," dice
Huitze, "komo tu ski de piski
hedo?"

"E tu ne es mi," reakti Chuangtze
"Komo tu ski; mi ne
ski?"

"Mi ne es tu, e ne ski; qod tu
ski," reakti Huitze, "es iso mi
doxo; tu ne es u piski; e tu ne
pote ski de piski hedo."

"Lase na ki versi a qestio mo,"
pa dice Chuangtze. "Tu questio
mi; komo mi ski de u reali piski
hedo. Tu qestio monstra ke tu pa
ski u-ra; mi pa ski. Mi pa ski id
ex mi plu este epi u-ci ponti."

FISH PLEASURE

Chuangtze and Huitze had strolled
on to the bridge over the Hao, when
the former observed, "See how the
fishes dart about. That is the
pleasure of fishes."

"You yourself are not a fish,"
said Huitze, "how can you possibly
know about the pleasure of fishes?"

"And you not being I," retorted Chuangtze.
"How can you know that
which I do not know?"

"That I, not being you, do not
know what you know," replied Huitze,
is identical with my argument that
you, not being a fish, cannot know what fish pleasure is like."

"Let us go back to your original
question," said Chuangtze. You ask
me how I know in what consists the
pleasure of fishes. Your very
question shows that you knew I knew.
I knew it from my own feelings on this bridge."

 

Alfred ¶øÀs

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - ½º¹Ú²ª "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry


FROM:A.W. Tueting <Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de>
¼w°ê¼}¥§¶Â, - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 04:08:03 (PD
SUBJECT:
Yuanyang is Mandarin duck

COMMENT:
Dear Ming, it is "*couple* of Mandarin ducks", and I totally agree with you that this doesn't sound very poetic. In German "Mandarinentenpaerchen" (although pretty long a word) sounds a lot better, because of the diminutive of couple/pair giving an immediate impression of two loving birds swimming side by side. Prof. Guenter Debon used this expression not too seldom - and it sounds quite good. With regard to translations, you're touching a very true topic: very, very often one cannot convey the 'very picture' from one language to another. For me, the English language (although immensely rich with vocabulary) e.g. seems poor with regard to its lack of diminutives - a pretty good language for internet though ;))
Maybe it would be much better adopting words like 'yuanyang' in English (and other Western languages) than those like 'Blitzkrieg' etc.

Here's the poem from ¸Ö¸g quoted by Siu-Leung with translation. Legge translated 'Yuanyang' by 'yellow ducks' (maybe a bit more poetic than 'Mandarin ducks'):

216. ÀpÀm YUAN YANG

ÀpÀm¤_­¸¡B²¦¤§Ã¹¤§¡C
§g¤l¸U¦~¡BºÖ¸S©y¤§¡C
ÀpÀm¦b±ç¡B·a¨ä¥ªÁl¡C
§g¤l¸U¦~¡B©y¨ä¹IºÖ¡C
­¼°¨¦b´\¡BºR¤§¯°¤§¡C
§g¤l¸U¦~¡BºÖ¸S¦ã¤§¡C
­¼°¨¦b´\¡B¯°¤§ºR¤§¡C
§g¤l¸U¦~¡BºÖ¸S¸k¤§¡C

The Yellow ducks fly about,
And are taken with hand-nets and spread-nets .
May our sovereign live for ten thousand years,
Enjoying the happiness and wealth which are his due !

The Yellow ducks are on the dam,
With their left wings gathered up.
May our sovereign live for ten thousand years,
Enjoying the happiness and wealth which are his due !

The teams of steeds are in the stable,
Fed with forage and grain .
May our sovereign live for ten thousand years,
Sustained in his happiness and wealth !

The teams of steeds are in the stable,
Fed with grain and forage .
May our sovereign live for ten thousand years,
In the comfort of his happiness and wealth !

The translation is taken from The Chinese Classics, vol. 4 by famous James Legge (1898)

Alfred ¶øÀs

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - ½º¹Ú²ª "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry


FROM:A.W. Tueting <Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de>
¼w°ê¼}¥§¶Â , - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 02:43:04 (PD
SUBJECT:
Birds -
COMMENT:
¤ñÁl³¾ is probably not a name of any bird but just two birds flying together, wing to wing. ÀpÀm as a pair of love bird is as old as 3000 years. It first appeared in Shi Jing ¤ò¸Ö ²Ä09-15¨÷¡@¤p¶®¡@ p-0480
ÀpÀm¤_­¸¡A²¦¤§Ã¹¤§¡C§g¤l¸U¦~¡AºÖ¸S©y¤§¡C
ÀpÀm¦b±ç¡A·a¨ä¥ªÁl¡C§g¤l¸U¦~¡A©y¨ä¹IºÖ¡C

FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 19:11:58 (PD
SUBJECT:
Love birds in Bai Yuji's poem
COMMENT:
In Bai Juyi's famous poem ¥Õ©~©ö ªø«ëºq

¦b¤ÑÄ@§@¤ñÁl³¾
¦b¦aÄ@¬°³s²zªK
¤Ñªø¦a¤[¦³®ÉºÉ
¦¹«ëºøºøµLµ´´Á
What kind of love birds did he talk about? Or, are they just a pair of nameless birds?

Ming
FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 17:26:05 (PD


SUBJECT:
ÀpÀm is Mandarin duck
COMMENT:
I shall have to get used to the fact that ÀpÀm is Mandarin duck.

I pity any poet who has to somehow write a pair of Mandarin ducks into his poem. And our good friend saying to his girl friend, "Look what I bought for you Honey - Mandarin ducks!" How do you make this sound romantic?

Ming
FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 17:03:46 (PD


SUBJECT:
ÀpÀm - Love birds
COMMENT:
The correct and only Western name is 'mandarin duck' (German.: Mandarinente). Yuan1 Àp is the drake, Yang1 Àm the female mandarin duck. The translation of 'yuanyang' ÀpÀm in German is 'Mandarinentenpaerchen' (couple of mandarin ducks) and this being correct too. The English expression 'love birds' though, seems to be a fancy name and much less close.

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - ½º¹Ú²ª "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry


FROM:A.W. Tueting <Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de>
¼w°ê¼}¥§¶Â, - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 15:00:00 (PD
SUBJECT:
Birds as Symbol of love
COMMENT:
Dear Tin-Kay and Dean Hedley:

The love birds are commonly known to the Chinese as "yuan yang" [ Àp Àm ]. I don't the English name for them, but "Mandarin duck" just doesn't do them justice. I would use their Chinese name Yuan Yang instead.

They are of the duck family, with flat beak, web feet and beautiful colored feathers. They always swin in pairs and mate for life.

These are not plain ordinary ducks.

Ming
FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 10:42:40 (PD


SUBJECT:
Stories of Calligraphist Extraordinaire, Wang Xizhi ¤ý¿ª¤§
COMMENT:

Allow me, an ignoramus in Chinese calligraphy, to post some interesting stories on the famous Wang Xizhi ¤ý¿ª¤§ (AD 303-361). I was reading up on Shaoxing, a city between Hangzhuo and Ningbo in the province of Zhejiang, famous for being the home to Lu Xun, Qiu Jin (female anti-Qing revolutionary), Zhuo Enlai's ancestors and the Shen Family Garden of Lu You-Tang Wan's ci love poems. I then realised that it is even more famous for the Orchid Pavilion Äõ«F of Wang Xizhi, which is the Mecca of Chinese calligraphists.

The most interesting of many Wang Xizhi's story is the theft of his famous masterpiece called Lan Ting Xu Äõ«F§Ç (Orchid Pavilion Record or Preface) written at the age of fifty years. This calligraphic work was passed to his seventh son, Wang Xianzhi, and was reputed to be lost till discovered some 300 years later to be in the hands of a Wang descendent, Bian Cai, who was a monk. The Tang Dynasty, Taizong Emperor, a lover of calligraphy, tried to get Bian Cai to surrender the masterpiece without avail.

Then, the Emperor sent a cunning official, Xiao Yi, disguised as a scholar, to show Bian Cai some other Wang Xizhi's calligraphy, boasting that no other work could matched his collection. Bian Cai, to dispute this boast, revealed he had the precious Lan Ting Xu, which he promptly showed Xiao Yi. Unfortunately for the monk, he was called on some urgent business, and the unscrupulous Xiao Yi stole the work for the Emperor, who had it buried with him. However, many copies were made before the Emperor departed his worldly affairs. I find it hard to believe why nobody open his grave to retrieve this masterpiece.

Another story featured Wang Xizhi losing a pearl from his pearl game, while seeing some brushes presented by a monk. He accused the monk of theft, for which the poor man promptly committed suicide to show his innocence. Wang Xizhi later found the pearl swallowed by his pet goose, and in repentance, he donated a piece of land to build the temple called Jie Zhu Si §Ù¯]¦x, Warning against pearl playing Temple.

Another strange story related to Wng Xizhi writing some words on a new table in his student's house. While the student was away, his father, unaware of the beautiful words from the master, got a carpenter to erase off the brush strokes. On returning home, the student was aghast, but fortunately could still see the words, despite 3 mm of wood being sand off. This gave rise to a proverb "enter wood for 3 mm" ¤J¤ì¤T¤À, meaning words that penetrate with forceful hand or meaning.

Wang Xizhi apparently was selected by an influential Jin Dynasty minister, Xi Jian, as his son-in-law because Wang pretended to show little interest at the minister's home by resting leisurely and being unconcerned during the selection process. Xi Jian chose well because Wang became a top calligraphist and produced a treatise on the eight strokes of the character Yong ¥Ã (forever), a calligraphic work on the Daoist book Huang Ting Jing ¶À®x¸g and started a one stroke style called the goose stroke ¤@µ§ÃZ.

His son, Wang Xianzhi, a renown calligraphist in his own right, was also an interesting person, He was considered good for calligraphy when his father came from behind him and tried to snatched his brush without avail, indicating that Wang junior had good finger grip. Apparently, Xianzhi once fell asleep while writing and his father helped him by putting a dot onto the character da ¤j (big) to make it into tai ¤Ó (highest). When Xianzhi showed his mother his calligraphy work, his mother remarked that the dot in the word tai ¤Ó looked like that of his father. How fascinating! Even a dot can be identified!

Wang Xianzhi once imitated his father's work, and supplanted his own writing. When Wang Xizhi returned, he was confused and remarked that he must have written the words when he was drunk, since it was not good enough. This embarrassed Xianzhi, who was even more determined to improve. Unfortunately, Wang Xianzhi died at the age of 43 years, before his peak.

Tin-Kay


FROM:Tin-Kay Goh <tgoh@bigpond.net.au>
Sydney, NSW Australia - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 09:49:13 (PD
SUBJECT:
Birds as Symbol of love
COMMENT:

Dear Dean Hedley

The bird that symbolises love is the colourful Mandarin duck. A pair of Mandarin ducks, also called the perching ducks (Aix galericulata), moving gracefully in water, suggests the harmony of two lovers. The film show on the famous but tragic love story of the Butterfly Lovers, Lian Shanbo and Zhu Yingtai, showed two Mandarin ducks when the lovers were singing their parting song. Two swifts flying together may also have that effect, though not as profound.

Tin-Kay


FROM:Tin-Kay Goh <tgoh@bigpond.net.au>
Sydney, NSW Australia - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 08:04:12 (PD
SUBJECT:
Chinese studies in Latin America
COMMENT:
Nicole,

You can try a web search and look at WWW Virtual Library under China. There might be something listed there. I don't know of any good source off hand about studying Chinese in Latin America or Spanish speaking countries. Ther are quite a few German institutes though, of very high calibre (U Heidelberg). In 0fact, the WWWVL of China is managed out of this university. You can click on my signature to go to WWWVL HongKong at my site, which is linked to other WWWVL.


FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 06:42:17 (PD


SUBJECT:
Chinese studies in Latin America
COMMENT:
To whom it may concern

This may be a somewhat bizarre request.

I am an Asian Studies major, and studied for six months at Tsinghua Da Xue in Beijing this past year. Currently, though, I am looking to study Chinese/ Asian Studies in a spanish speaking country (preferably somewhere in Latin America). My notion is that there's a strong connection between Latin America and Asia, and I want to try to get a better understanding of that first hand. (I should note that I speak spanish fluently, so finding courses taught in English shouldn't be a concern.)

My question to you is 'do you know which universities in Latin America have solid Asian Studies departments or at the very least offer courses dealing with Asia?' (I don't know if it'll make a difference, but I'm still an undergraduate.)

If you could throw any light on the subject, or if you can think of someone else who could, I would greatly appreciate it!

Best Regards,

Nicole Schaeffer-Sanchez