I have a typo too. 更 in the poem should be 入聲。

I probably led to your misunderstanding. The sound 流 樓 in Hakka should be "lale, lail, lel" like in "sale" or "sail", in fact closer to "sell", but you don't pronounce the last consonant ( don't roll your tongue up as in English). There is no double syllible for Chinese words as in Japanese.

The research in Hakka is receiving some new interest since 1990s. There is a scholarly association to study Cantonese on the net, another on Minnan. Without preservation of these dialects, preservation of culture will be a much harder task. It is unfortunate that native American tongues are vanishing and not too many people can tell the story of Mayan, Aztec, Inca any more.

The world will be better if we have more diversity.

Dear Siu-Leung,
I guess it's impossible for me to avoid typos :(( Thanks for your corrections!
Just a question: I noticed that some Mandarin characters like 流、樓、口 (liu, lou, kou) in Hakka sound 'lale' or 'hale' respectively. Do these transliterations really represent two-syllable sounds??? Or is it just a way to indicate a certain (mono-syllabic) pronunciation of 'la-'/'ha-'? If it were disyllabic (1 character/2 syllables), I'd regard this as a very interesting fact from the linguistic point of view. Could this derive from influence or even roots of non-Sino-tibetan language(s)? In this case, linguistic features like that could be just faint/indirect remains of a forgotten heritage, since not the words themselves had survived, but only a slight touch of a polysyllabic principle.

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
"Traces of Butterflies' Dreams" - 蝶夢痕

In Mandarin:
白日依山盡   仄仄平平仄
黃河入海流   仄仄仄仄仄
欲窮千里目   仄仄平仄仄
更上一層樓   仄仄平仄仄

(in this case 更 is 上聲, 仄)

Dear Siu-Leung,

>I don't think 王之渙 could have been that negligent especially for a 5-word JueShi 五言絕詩 which the rules >are absolute. Thus, I think Cantonese would be a more appropriate language for reciting Tang poems.

you are absolutely right - Wang Chih-huan's poem wouldn't have been appreciated like it was (esp. in his time), had it shown severe violations of the rules of composition like it does now in Mandarin.

The syllables indicated with 'a' are 'free'.

You can easily discover that only the first line matches with the pattern.
The following lines' sounds are wrong, the rhyme words are in the correct position (lines 2 and 4) - but being far from perfect (liu/lou!). Besides, also the rule requiring an even tone for the rhyme is hurt.
This surely was not Wang Chih-huan's poetical 'weakness'!!!

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
"Traces of Butterflies' Dreams" - 蝶夢痕

To illustrate the language change, here is a very simple and popular example of a poem by 王之渙:

白日依山盡  
黃河入海流

In mandarin it is :
/ \ - - \  (仄仄平平仄)
/ / \ U /  (仄仄仄仄仄) 
( - / U \ = 平上去入， 上去入=仄聲)

This is a total violation of the rules.

In Cantonese:

仄仄平平仄 
平平仄仄平

(依山 = 陽平) (黃河流 = 陰平)
The others are 仄聲.

Strictly compatible with the rules.

In Hakka, I don't know how to assign the ping/ze, but 
musically it sounds like the following (again using the scale I metnioned before:

6 6 4 4 6
1 1 5 3 1

It is easily seen that the first sentence is 
in contrast with the second in tones. And it sounds 
quite musical.

I composed a poem in college using Cantonese, matching all ping/ze rules. But my professor of Chinese said it violated the ping/ze when recited in Mandarin. I did not have any support to debate, but now I do. :).

Dear Siu-Leung and Julian,
thanks a lot for your postings. I might have sworn already before that the poem's mandarin rhyming is not as perfect as it is in other Chinese languages. If that piece of poetry were not written by a contemporary but an ancient author, I'd say that this proves the sounding of 'classical' Chinese being different from 'Mandarin' spoken today. (But maybe the calligrapher Wu Zheng 吳徵 didn't compose the poem by himself rather than taking an old one - if not, he might have written it according the sound of his local dialect.)
As far as I see it, the poem is in Lu shih-style 律詩, a chueh chu 絕句 ('short poem') of the seven-word type 七字, starting with an 'oblique' tone (tse 仄聲).
Hence, the pattern should be like this:

a = anceps; z = ze 仄聲; p = ping 平聲

Apart from the imperfect rhyming in Mandarin, what do you think of the poem's accordance with the above pattern with regard to the tones? As far I can judge this from the Mandarin point of view, it seems to be far from perfect. What is your opinion? As 'classical' poetry uses only the four tones of the official language, could there be a difference e.g. in Cantonese, Hakka etc. versions on that score?

Siu-Leung, the Hakka expression for 'ren' 人: 'ngin' reminds me of the sino-japanese expression of this character in the compound 外人 'gaijin' (stranger)! Are there similar pronunciations of this word in the dialects of Shantung and the Chinese coastal areas to Japan?

BTW, it's quite interesting hearing of the amazing musicality of the Chinese languages (or better: the Chinese speakers' highly developed aural sensivity). Marcel Granet, the famous French sinologist, first pointed out the emblematic character of Chinese writing/language. This is easily understood by Westerners - with regard to the 'beautiful' Chinese picture-characters! But Granet also demonstrated the emblematic function of the Chinese word as an aural emblem! This is hard to understand regarding the 'poverty of sound' (extremely in Mandarin, but - from a Westerner's point of view - even in other Chinese dialects). But wasn't it that in ancient times the princes used to adjust the emblems of the clans using musical instruments (flutes)?!

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
"Traces of Butterflies' Dreams" - 蝶夢痕

I never need to learn Cantonese..: ) It is my mother tongue. But for what I heard or read from the experts, Cantonese word gets 9 different intonation and that makes it very difficult for non-Cantonese people to learn to speak Cantonese. I suppose that is true for us to learn Mandarin for that matter. There is a saying, " 天 不 怕 ，地 不 怕 , 最 怕 廣 東 人 講 官 話 "

The following is a Cantonese transliteration of the poem

Ho bit chun fung far chi hoi

Sin yan gi joi big san wiu

Bai wan wai ngo fung guk hau

I presented two examples and left out the sound for the second example, the one with 牛cattle, 鉤hook. It sounds like "ngau". you can see these words sound totally different in mandarin: 牛 niu and 鉤 gou. They don't rhyme at all.

Hakka:
Ho bi(t) choon fung fa ci hoi
sen ngin zi coi bi(t) san voi
pa(k) wun wui ngai fung gu(k) hale
bu(t) fong yi ngin ngip tung loi.

Cantonese:
Ho bi(t) chun fung fa ci hoi
Sin yun zi zoi bi(k) saan wai*
Ba(k) wan wai ngo fung gu(k) hou
bu(t) fong yu yan yu(p) dong loi

Note that the last word of the 1st, 2nd and 4th sentences should rhyme in a poem. The rule is very strict. Mandarin does not rhyme as well:
kai, wei, lai.
In this case even Cantonese (hoi, wai, loi) does not make it, but hakka does (hoi, voi, loi).

Another dialect "Dongguan" also give better rhyming (hui, wui, lui).
I happen to know about a dozen of the dialects around the pearl river delta. There are about 50 of them within an area of 300 miles radius.
In the above I have omitted the intonations of the words, which will make it too complicated to read. But without the intonation, the poem also does not sound right. The whole idea of Chinese poem is based on the contrast of tones from one sentence to another. A "ping" 平 sound word is always matched with a "ze" 仄 sound word. Failing to do so expose the weakness of the poet. This rule is quite limiting and challenging to poets. Chinese poets have to choose words carefully to fit the rule. Fortunately there are quite a number of words of the same meaning but different sounds to choose from. Nonetheless, this rule can ruin many good poems.

The reason behind the sound contrast is music. Poems were sung, with or without accompany of instruments. Cantonese has 9 tones, Mandarin 4, Minnan 8, Hakka 6. This tone setting is the most challenging for any foreigner to learn Chinese. Switching from one dialect to another can generate numerous jokes of distored meaning.

Because Cantonese has 9 tones, it is the most musical. if the words are chosen correctly, just sound them out is a piece of music. the following is an example of one sound "ho" (pronounced as in "hall") in different tones if sung in music (using the scale 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 for C D E F G A B):

        平   上   去  入
upper : 6   4/5   4   6'
middle:               4' 
lower:  1   2/4   2   2'
/ and \ indicate a upturning or downturning of the tone.


6 is upper "ping" 陽平, 1 is lower "ping" 陰平. All others are "ze" 仄.

呵 可 [] []                 勾 嘔 漚 [a]
         殼                          []
河 [] 賀 學                 牛 偶 [b]屹

[a] no written word but means "press".
[b] no written word but means "stunned, staring blank"
[] no word nor meaning.
I have not found a sound that has all 9 tones meaningful yet.

呵 = to blow
可 = capable
殼 = shell
河 = river
賀 = to congratualte
學 = to learn

勾 = to hook or hook 鉤
嘔 = to vomit
漚 = to ferment(degrading)
牛 = cattle 
偶 = couple (also lotus rhizome 藕)
屹 = standing strong

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
"Traces of Butterflies' Dreams" - 蝶夢痕

Thanks so much for your comments to fill in the background of the artist Wu Zheng. It now completes the story for the picture. I am not a professional artist or Sinologist. I am a biochemist/chemist turned enterpreneur. My interest on Chinese culture started early but never as a career path. Now I might define myself as an amateur sinology hobbyist with interest in biochemistry/chemistry :).

As for my website Asiawind Art Gallery, I do want to cover more on the contemporary Chinese calligraphy, which is only about one month old with the paintings of Ms. Fu YiYao. But without granted copyrights, I cannot post others' artworks. Please do invite your friends to join in. I AM interested in developing a novel style of calligraphy/painting. It is in the immature stage. I believe the future of Chinese painting should be include the incorporation of western techniques and themes. (I had piece of long message in this forum but it was lost in the computer crash). It is not easy to create and evaluate contemporary calligraphy and painting. Many, I would say, are still feeling the way. Others are faking it without much basic skills.

Mr. Yang, your knowledge in Chinese calligraphy and painting will be a tremendous addition to this forum. Please do write often.

The author 吳徵 painted the artwork in 癸亥冬十一月, which was winter 1983 (or any multiple of 60 years before then). There was a Qing calligrapher 吳大徵 (with "water" on the left). But his seal and signature are a bit different. The poem is better than the calligraphy. 吳大徵 is an expert in the "seal script". His calligraphy would be much better than the one in this painting.

Julian did a good job in the English translation. If I may, the last two sentences could be translated in the first person:

Yee white clouds, seal the valley for me.
Fishermen are not allowed to enter my cave.

Since in the second sentence, the author already personifies himself as the deity. It would be more vivid to continue this in the first person. (Julian, agree?)

The poem seems to be stemmed from 陶潛 Tao Qian's 桃花源 Tao Hua Yuan poem which describes a lost traveller tracing up a brook lined with plum blossoms. Upon entering a cave, he found beyond a Shangrila inhabited by people of lost time. This is one of my most favorite poems.

Thank you, dear Julian, for your translation/interpretation! What time do you think is the painting/calligraphy? I tried to read it, up to now without success (... 十一月).

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
"Traces of Butterflies' Dreams" - 蝶夢痕

Mulan is the first American cartoon that portraits a key Chinese character, and more importantly in a positive way. For that, I applaud its effort. Of course this is also a business idea to capture the Asian market, especially the huge market for children entertaintment in China and other regions with overseas Chinese. (The single-child families treat the kid like emperor/empress.) Unfortunately, it hit the Asian market at the wrong timing. Otherwise the box record should be even better.

I can see the treatment of such a film would be totally different if the producer were Chinese. Chinese tend to treat patriotic themes more seriously. The cute dragon would never have a place in a Chinese cartoon of Mulan. On the other hand, American producers tend to treat serious topics too lightly, in general. Kids would love the American style. Nonetheless, the philosophy may be more easily taken by kids this way.
The image of Mulan is scultured through the typical American periscope, modelling on the classical ladies in Chinese paintings - pointed chins, long narrow face. This type of face is commonly seen in Hangzhou. There is not a trace of "ying wu" 英武. In fact, many Chinese ladies from Shandong and Anhui (Professor Pei's home province) feature round square faces that are faminine as well as strong, that is more suited for a heroine figure.
Considering the scanty coverage and often distorted image of Asians by the American media, Mulan should be rated a breakthrough.

I took a look at your painting. It is lovely drawn. The artist probably is a hermit who wants to be left alone in the mountain, up above the river ( or brook ) not to be disturbed. The poem on the painting reflects that sentiment. I make an attempt to translate that poem as follows:

Who needs Spring breeze for the flowers to bloom;

The deity is now resting in the Green mountain.

White clouds block the valley mouth for me,

Disney's Mulan has finally arrived Germany. On nov. 19 the movie had its start in Munich. I'm curious - you in U.S. might know more already about it.

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
"Traces of Butterflies' Dreams" - 蝶夢痕

Very easy! Simply go to
this site !
Click on International.
Click on China.
Then click on a Province
You get the report on several cities.

Now, as a reward to me, tell me where is Bampo, and what will you be doing there.

Frank asked about museums in China. There are plenty to see, just in Beijing.Great Wall, Ming Tomb, Forbidden Palace, Heavenly Palace, RongBaoZhai, History Museum, YiHeYuan, ....I can spend months in there. Xian and Luoyang are even more interesting.

Any way, you can find a lot of information from my bookmark collection in my Hakka page:http://www.asiawind.com/hakka/This was just updated. Follow the "china link" on the side bar. In the most recent addition (second table), there are all the major museum websites, art and calligraphy sites,cultural associations, archaeology, ethnic groups, regional interest, bookstores, .....Have fun!

Any way, you can find a lot of information from my bookmark collection in my Hakka page:http://www.asiawind.com/hakka/This was just updated. Follow the "china link" on the side bar. In the most recent addition (second table), there are all the major museum websites, art and calligraphy sites,cultural associations, archaeology, ethnic groups, regional interest, bookstores, .....Have fun!

It is an interesting thought to use Mexican ironwood for seal carving.Normally various types of stones are used, each is valued by the rock'sbeauty and its unique texture as marked by the knife. Chinese seals carving isanother serious art stemmed from callilgraphy yet different in some ways.Often the lines are not smooth and straight but deliberately made rough togive an ancient feel. The unique "brokenness" of lines is also a unique identification to prevent fraud. Such texture may not be easily duplicated in wood.Hard woods are used for seals too, but only for very routine business and never in fine paintings.

Dear Julian, Ming &. Siu-Leung, I hope this discussion isn't getting too boring for other readers here, but for myself I'm about to gain quite interesting insights into this subtle matter.
Julian, I do not think the ancient Chinese wanted to express a certain modification of the kingfisher's colors when referring to the hillside. Since ts'ui 翠 being also the expression of that bird itself, it means the different colors and shades of blue and green of its plumage (i.e. not a distinct color, but a very special color-mix). Even for this reason already, most probably there was no need for a verbal modification of 'cui' when using it as an expression for the blue-green hills - these anyway appearing like that in (unforgettable) tints of blue and green. Actually, the ancient Chinese weren't too anxious in verbally indicating distinct colors: If you think of the 'color' ch'ing 青 'the color of nature', standing for green, blue, black or a drab of neutral tint ! Had there been any reason for a meticulous differentiation like that? But, as Siu-Leung conclusively pointed out, there are remarkable philosphical/religious reasons to express that those (human) buildings like pavilions are *not* situated on the very top of a hill, hence needed to be compared with a hill, to which they are *inferior* (lower).
I'd also say that 'cuiwei' cannot be changed to 'weicui'. As you know better than me, ancient Chinese owns a lot of grammar, just the grammatical means to perform it are very limited. It's mainly done by syntactical means. For our subject discussed here, I would rather assume: cuiwei ting 翠微亭 stands for somewhat 'hill-inferior' pavilion (the first compound word being attributive to pavilion; the word 'hill' being an attribute of 'inferior' as a comparative object).
I will show an example for this:
Pattern a): A 比 B C - or e.g. 人比山小 (A man is smaller than a mountain)
Pattern b): 比 B C 的 A -or 比山小的人 (The man smaller than a mountain)

If you now replace 'shan' 山 by 'cui' 翠 (blue-green of the hill), 'xiao' 小 by 'wei' 微 (literally: small, humble, inferior etc.) and 'ren' 人 by 'ting' 亭 (pavilion) and also drop the 2 components of the modern Chinese syntax 'bi' 比 (compared with) and 'de' 的 you easily will get the ancient expression 'cuiwei ting' 翠微亭 literally meaning: 'Pavilion inferior to (=lower than) the blue-green (hill)'.
In my opinion, this construction using the basic meaning of the word 'wei' might be less 'artificial' than that using the negative in the sense of 'lacking of' etc. ('pavilion lacking the height of ...'). In this sense, 'wei' often is used in if-sentence constructions like the most quoted one: "If it had not been for Yu (the Great) we should all have been fishes" 微禹吾其魚乎. In this grammatical function it precedes the subject it is related to.

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
"Traces of Butterflies' Dreams" - 蝶夢痕

I have cleaned out this page, and moved previousdiscussions to the "previous" page.