Stephen and Rudy, up to the moment I could not find similar graphies to identify the enscription's vessel-shaped pictures. As for the character 'tou/dou4' ¨§: it represents a dish in which meat(!) was served up (offered?!) - ¥j­¹¦×¾¹¤] - In the ancient form the upper ¤@ stroke did not exist, and a dot indicated the contents of the vessel. Yet I do not know what ¥Ò°© / ª÷¦r it is standing for.
The modern character 'offering' Äm has nothing in common with ¨§: its meaning is 'to offer to the deceased ancestors ©v¼q the cooked flesh of a fat dog, regarded as the utmost filial piety, the most palatable of all offerings (¤üªÎªÌ¥HÄm¤§¡D¡D±q¤ü±q¿c), yet there are other characters including ¨§ representing vessels e.g. an ancient earthenware in form of a tiger, now a component of the character hsi4 À¸ (but this you know better than I ever will).

Anyway, it's interesting - and maybe one of us will be stroken by a blow of imagination ...

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - ½º¹Ú²ª
My Poetry

To quote another saying:
They have learned nothing from history.
They have forgotten nothing from history.

RealNetworks has two programs: player to play sound files, and producer to record sound files,

If you wish to be a "Hollywood producer," get the second program. Download a free Real Producer G2 from their site.

Note: They also sell two other versions of Real Producers that sell for $150 and $500. Don't buy them.

The name of the program is "Real Producer G2".

¥H¼wªA¤HªÌ¤ý¡A¥H¤OªA¤HªÌÅQ¡C(Those who pursue others with kindness are crowned. Those who force upon others are tyrants.) ¤¯ªÌµL¼Ä¡C(Kindness is invincible) ¥Á¤£¬È¦º¡A©`¦ó¥H¦ºÄߤ§?(If people are not afraid of death, how can you threaten them with death?)

In response to a recent quest of why we need to study Chinese culture, I think the above may be part of the answer. What is happening in the Balkans happened in China many times during Chunqiu/Warring States period, Five-Dynasty period and many historical moments. The principles are "applicable to the entire world" ©ñ¤§¥|®ü¬Ò·Ç.

A most distinct difference in Mandarin pronunciation is the missing "m" ending : san (not Saam). Try the following to tell if you qualify as a native Cantonese speaker. If you pronounce:
san for saam ¤T , gun for gum ®Ú, jun for jum °w.
You failed ! :)

Ming suggests to have sound files on websites. It is new to me and I have tried it a bit. The files are still too big. But I think it is a good idea to resolve these difficulties.

http://www.asiawind.com

The first word in the inscription should be °ß. It does not mean "unique, only" or have any meaning but to begin a sentence (like Eh... in English). It looks like «A and probably interchangeably written in the same way.

There has been a remarkable advancement in the technology for the World Wide Web and Internet to play sound, just as well as display words (in English or Chinese).

The company mainly responsible for this is the Real Network, Inc.

If you do not have it already, I strongly recommend that you go to their site and download a free copy of their software.

Click here to download from Real Networks site

The latest version work for Mac as well as PC.

I urge all of you to get comfortable with this. There are quite a number of sound files at this site, and I intend to add more.

There has been quite a bit of discussions about pronounciations lately. Let's "say" the sound rather than trying to convey the sound using some sort of "romantization" schemes. That was necessary years ago when we had to write on paper. Now that we have computers , sound cards, speakers, and Internet, what is the excuse for using the old method to express sound????

Congratulations to you guys on transribing of the inscription of the sword. I just want to get back to your question on «A and ¬° .

In Cantonese, the proper pronunication of «A is jui ( as À@ ) not wai ( as °ß ¡^

In my Hakka Homepage I have tabulated the comparison of several dialects on some words quite frequently have trouble in rhyming for recitation. It is also interesting to note that (as I was told) in Shanxi and Shandong, some ancient pronunciations have been preserved, reminescent of Hakka or Cantonese, Hoklo. e.g. airplane ­¸¾÷ is Fei Gei (Cantonese), Fui Gee (Hakka), and Fei Gee (Shandong) Home is Ga in Cantonese, Hakka, Hoklo and Shandong, but "Jia" in Mandarin. I guess that has something to do with Shanxi as the origin of Qin and Shandong the origin of ancient Lu culture. which are more "stubborn" than others. (Please correct me on Shandong and Hoklo if not right).

So-called Southern dialects retained the nasal "ng" sound, most typically the word I §Ú(Hunan, Cantonese, Jiangsu in slight variations: "ngo"; Hakka: "ngai", but Hoklo: "wua" is closer to Mandarin "wo"). If you paid attention to Zhu Rongji's speech, he was still pronouncing the Hunan dialect "ngo". He was born in Changsha.

On Stephen's list, I can add that the correct pronunciation for ·Æ½] in Cantonese is "gwut kai" but most people say "wuat kai".

Just to make things more complicated, in the Pearl delta, there are at least 50 different dialects. I can recognize about 6 or 7. These dialects, I think, were the relics of the unification of China under Qin when 30,000 women were "drafted" from central China to keep the Qin soldiers settled in Guangdong.

The purpose of this discussion is not to discredit any dialect or to find which is the most ancient. I think, the importance is on how to better appreciate ancient poetry.

BTW, I am helping Shawn to identify his sword inscription in a more specific way. I don't think the forum discussion would help him when he does not have a Chinese font reader.

http://www.asiawind.com

Dear Ming, you're totally right with your sketch of Wen's convictions. It is not the ordinary Ch'i (®ð) he's talking of in his last famous 'canto' (and the more in his real living and dying), yet I would not say that there wasn't any metaphysical or mystic understanding left. Wen acknowledges that this ¥¿®ð is immanent to every 'being' and creation in the universe ¤Ñ¦a¦³¥¿®ð ÂøµM½á ¬y§Î ... (heaven and earth, sun and stars, mountains and rivers). In human beings sometimes its called by 'Great Soul' ('the natural greatness of a soul' or magnanimous; ¯EµM¤§®ð Legge: 'passion-nature' - maybe 'Mahatma' in Hindi (Wen: ©ó¤H¤ê¯EµM).
Going on in his song, Wen points out thoroughly where in history this 'right spirit' had been embodied. Later on in his verses, he's speaking of his own fate, imprisonment, suffering - waiting for his death (execution) in a region and under circumstances not at all fitting with the rules of ­·¤ô - yet still bearing and conserving this Ch'i in his 'pure heart', untouchable by the bad spirits of superstition (³±¶§¤£¯à¸é). Wen doesn't reject the old customs, but he is imploring the degeneration of the old values at his time (­õ¤H¤é¤w»·), thus trying to live the old real ¥¿ spirit, and filling it again with the original contents. So sitting and reciting the old scripts at his windy place beneath the eaves he longs for the old wise men of the past and with the splendor of virtue (¥j¹D) upon his face. (BTW, the metapher 'sitting exposed to the winds' seems to be a quotation with the meaning 'longing for the poets/wise men of the past'.)
Ming, for me as a German, this is the only kind of patriotism tolerable after WW II (and there really were men and women suffering in prisons and camps, waiting for death, with this spirit - alas, most of them hadn't been poets though).

You're right with the typo ¦·/Âø - it writes the same in GB - I hate it ;) ! I took the poem from an old booklet a Chinese friend sent to me, it's from his school days during the 50ies in Guilin ®ÛªL.

BTW, ten years ago, it took me about 3 months translating the 'canto' to a rhyming and comparably concise German. There are lots, real lots of notes added (e.g. with regard to the many historic facts pointed to by Wen T'ien-hsiang). I regret they're not in English. If anybody at least knowing German would do the translation! I'm too lazy and gotten too old now ;(( for this odd job.

Alfred

P.S. ·¡¥}ÅÕ¨ä«a - How would you translate this verse ??? What might be the historic meaning of ÅÕ«a (Wen surely points to ·¡¥}¹ïª_ 'the captives from Ch'u wept with each other'.)

Cyclin across China tells the story of 3 English young men bicycling across the Gobi desert. Bicycles. Not motorcycles.

«A©P¤÷¤ý¥|¦~¤­¤ë¥E(§@)(Î_¡H)¥Î¦ë(?)(§º¡H¡H)( Ä_¡H¡H)

Rudy and Stephen, thanks for your interesting contributions. I'm glad having people here interested and knowledgeable on this stuff.
Rudy, I just can't share your opinion on the transscription (and meaning) of the graphy you're giving as ¥E(§@) - at least not with regard to the 'text' you referred to on my site. I try to transscribe it here with

°ß¤A¤x¤î¡I¥À¤A¡¹
´L¹©¸U¦~¤l¤G®]¤G¥ÃÄ_¥Î

On the day 'i-szu' (°ß¤A) in presence of the deceased grandfather (¤î) the widowed grandmother (¥À)
has offered with libation (¤A) etc. i.e. wine (´L) this bronze tripod (¹©) to last ten thousand years (¸U¦~).
(Hoping that) innumerable sons (¤l¤G) and grandsons (®]¤G) will enjoy it forever - lit.: (as an) ever lasting (¥Ã) treasure (Ä_) will have/share its use (¥Î).

The 3rd graphy (followed by exclamation mark) is not transscribed correctly with ¥E(§@) but with the ancient graphy representing the 'heel' or footstep of the ancestor (¤î) - nowadays pron. 'zhi3' (stop etc.).

The last graphy (1st line with star) cannot transscribe correctly as ¤A (yi3); as far I'm informed on this, there is no modern character to represent this old graphy indicating the pouring down of libation (often also displayed as a dot or kind of ¤Q indicating the grass on which the wine is poured out). It does not represent a kind of spoon (¤c)

As for the ¤G strokes incorporated in the graphies standing for 'son' and 'grandson': they add the meaning of 'innumerable' to the 'pictures'. (As you mentioned already, we have it also in modern writing as a sign of repetation.)
The two little circles (forming kind of an 8 shape) added to the graphy 'son' form the graphy for 'grandson' still kept in the modern character ®] at its left (¦Í). It represents the skein of yarn as symbol of the succession of generations, hence forming 'grandson'.

Rudy, your speculation on the derivation of «A/°ß is really interesting and very sensitive-intelligent. I like it more than Stephen's opinion that it has no meaning left, but just stands to indicate the beginning of a sentence/statement (which - with regard to our modern translating - might be correct too), yet in my opinion, initially (in its creation) nothing is without sense or meaning!

BTW, Rudy, I Ging ©ö¸g at least has the power to stir up our creative forces in order to get aware of our own status/relations etc. in a very creative and imaginative way, hasn't it? (Yet, when once - about 15 years ago - casting a divination for a friend imprisoned and with lots of sever troubles, the results really were amazing: He got the worst result ever imaginable for his present status - and after the 'changes' (©ö) the very best to think of. And so it came in reality! After that I never dealt again with I Ging.

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - ½º¹Ú²ª
My Poetry

You brought up one of my favorite poet/stateman/patriot and his last writing. It was written at the end of his long inprisonment and imminant death. It is his proclaimation for honor, duty, integration, loyalty to his country, and fearlessness of the threat of death. He reaffirmed his defiance of his captors. It is a clear statement of what is morally right, and his willingness to uphold it with his life.

His position is based on his deep and unshakable convictions, and not on Qi, or any metaphysical or mystic reasons. It stands on it own.

BTW, I checked several sources and think there is a typo in your postings - first word in the second line.

«A©P¤÷¤ý¥|¦~¤­¤ë¥E(§@)(Î_¡H)¥Î¦ë(?)(§º¡H¡H)( Ä_¡H¡H)

Rudy, I am not a great expert with old Chinese enscriptions, but you surely are right dating the items back to Chou ©P dynasty. If they are not falsifications they came up from the first centuries B.C.. The items (parts of weapons) look pretty good on the picture, seemingly made from bronze (copper?), with the enscriptions as well looking rather authentic.
The main part of your 'translation' also seems to be correct:
(Yet one should be aware of the fact that those 'texts' don't already have a syntax comparable to later (ancient or even modern) Chinese. Transcribing the graphies with regular Chinese characters is 'possible' to a certain extent, but translating the characters' meaning literally produces nonsens.)

The first graphy infact translates 'at the time/on/during etc.' as you told us. The 'picture' is that of a short-tailed bird («A - zhui1), but it's usually transscribed using °ß - wei3, since very often the graphy too displays with a ¤f -kou3 component.
(Can anyone tell me the origin of this meaning 'on' etc.?)

The 2nd graphy's transscription (and meaning!) seems to be zhou1 ©P (although other graphy 'texts' from that period of time are using a rather different - more complex - 'picture' for 'Chou').

¤÷ - fu might be correct, ¤ý - wang2 as well.
(One meets the graphy ¤ý pretty often in 'texts' of that period, used in the sense of 'the ruler'/'the prince'/'the sovereign' or 'the king' and even 'the emperor', the latter also having its own graphy. It's often 'written' in the modern character's shape - sometimes with the last stroke curved up -, or with an anthropomorphic symbol: The ball-shaped ending of the vertical stroke here doesn't seem too common! So, could it read 'Yu4' ¥É (jade)? Could 'Fu Yu' make more sense than 'Fu wang?? On the other hand, the 'jade' character originally represented the picture of three discs of jade on a thread - without the additional dot added that only the modern form has.

I personally am not too sure with the character ¥| - si4 because also having met very similar graphies that were translated as 'three'.

¦~ - nian2 (year) is quite clear, ¤­ - wu3 (five) as well, and also is ¤ë - yue4 (month/moon).

The next graphy (could it be part of ¤ë? - I don't think so): §@ - zuo4 (make etc.) or ¥E - zha4 (the first etc.)??? I must admit that I have no idea to it - just doubts :((. So it is with most of the following symbols. (BTW, the graphy usually transscribed with ¥Î - yong4 (use etc.) seems to go back to the fence in front of the ancestrial shrine. It always/usually appears in 'texts' with reference to offerings to the ancestors, as well as the symbol 'heel' with the meaning of 'in presence of the ancestor(s)'.)

Rudy's guess of the last graphy as Ä_ - bao3 (valuable/treasures) seems to be quite close to its meaning: but the graphy usually transscribed with Ä_ displays differently (with all its variations). In my opinion, it really represents - in a very simple form - the offering son carrying strings of cowries (not displayed!) hanging down from both hands.
This interpretation could go together with my own guess on the very faint symbol preceding this one: I'd say it looks like (the usually also rather complicated) graphy representing an animal's hide offered on stakes (sorry, I don't know if there's a modern/regular character for it). If this assumption is correct, the 'text' would say that the bronze(?) items were offered together with (other) valuables and raw flesh (as the usual offerings).

Sorry, Rudy, my contribution being rather poor up to the moment. Maybe we can still get closer.
(BTW, you can see some examples of ancient graphies on my site: 'Root of Chinese Writing')

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - ½º¹Ú²ª
My Poetry

My position is: "The future can be foretold, even with the non-deterministic characteristics of certain events."

Let me add this: "Our knowledge is not perfect, but we are learning more and more and thus can tell more and more about our future."

Let me explain.

Suppose you and I lived 1,000 years ago, and some High Priests predicted the forthcoming solar eclipse to us. You would say that is magic and no one can foretell the future. Impossible!

Yet with a good knowledge of astronomy and Newtonian Physics, it is no longer magic at all. The mystery is gone. But the magic of predicting future events is just as wonderful.

In earlier 20-th century came Quantum Mechanics and Uncertainty Principle, which says that by Newtonian Physics is theoretically impossible to predict events at the atomic levels. Then we learned more.

I can go on. But the point is, "Just because we do not know how to predict the future does not necessarily mean the it is impossible." There is big difference there.

There are endless arguments between Physics and metaphysics. You should not take the position of the scientists that "if I don't understand it by my rules, it is automatically false."

The Chinese, I believe, would give the philosophers a bit more respect, and tell the scientists that they don't know everything yet.

April 1 is only a few days ago. One should not expect others to respond instantly. Do you?

I am sending you email also.

Dear friends, this is what famous patriot and poet Wen Tianxiang thought of the power of Qi:

This is a very noble and 'modern' conception and has nothing in common with superstition.

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - ½º¹Ú²ª
My Poetry

Inestimable? :) Not really. Just a humble Chinese culture enthusiast trying to learn something new all the time.

The poem by DU Mu ®È±J you asked me to record in Cantonese actually does not rhyme well in Cantonese. I sent you the recording for Du Mu's ¤s¦æ "Shan Xing" in Cantonese, Mandarin, and Hakka. I found that you already have the Mandarin version on your site. Perhaps you can also do the §d»y (Shanghaiese or Suchowese ) version for comparison of all four. It would be an interesting comparison indeed. By the way, I love listening to Wu dialect.

National Arts Club in its history of promoting the best artists(including hundreds of the best American musicians, painters, actors/actresses,...) only have three resident Chinese artists: Cheng Ji (water color), Jian Wen Shu (Chinese painting, Chang Da Qian's school), and now Ms. Fu YiYao.
Please pass this information to friends of interest. Some of Ms. Fu's paintings are posted at my website:
http://www.asiawind.com/art/painting/fuyy/index.htm

In your short email, you actually raised a number of points that are worth discussing.

First of all, let me assure you that the authenticity of I Ching is beyond doubt. It was written over 3,000 years ago. There are many solid evidences that support this claim. As to your doubt whether people at that time were smart enough to produce such a book or writing, again, in my opinion, there is no doubt that they were capable. Just look at the pyramids of Egypt. They were built over 3,000 years ago and yet we do not know for sure how they could have built them. Take our written language for example. The best writing has peaked at Han or pre Han Dynasty. The Book of History ( ¥v °O ) is a proof.

You wondered how come such a book can decipher so much knowledge and if there are doubters along with you. I can tell you there are lots of people who have the same thinking as you.

To start with, I Ching was written long time ago and the words it used were very ancient in meaning and they are not everyday usage. Besides, the sentences are very concise and short. It took many great scholars to elaborate on the Book and added their own interpretation. These scholars did not agree to one another and there are many schools of interpretation of I Ching. To complicate the issue, later on many people even believe that I Ching can answer all kinds of questions and make predications and oracles. The worst of such schools of I Ching fall into the category of superstition and it is this school of I Ching that I do not agree.

You can find it from "Read Poetry", "New", or "Du Mu" page under "Poetry". Hope this will keep my Cantonese-speaking friends happy.

It is amazing that ancient Chinese had such a macroscopic concept of the universal laws and order at that time. Just read °®¤å¨¥ Qian Wen Yan:

¼çÀs¤Å¥Î - the hidden dragon is not in use yet.
¨£Às¦b¥Ð - the dragon starts to appear in field.
­¸Às¦b¤Ñ - the dragon is flying in the sky.
¤®Às¦³®¬ - the expiring dragon is repenting.
It clearly demonstrates the sigmoidal curve of phasal changes in biological and other natural systems (seasonal, astronomical changes...). What a terrific understanding and summary of LIFE and NATURE!

Even more amazing is the coincidence(!?) of the 64 hexagrams with the universal genetic codes of triplets. Each amino acid is coded by a triplet of two bases (pyrimidines/purines, can be represented by -- and __). The result is 64 codes!

Why didn't either system end up with other combinations?

Dear Ming, the site you pointed to seems to be real good, but you've got a typo in its URL. Here it is one more time:

http://www.chcp.org/Vwedding.html

BTW, I think the wedding (birth and funeral) customs seem to differ from one another according to region. As I mentioned already in this place, I owe an old book with the title ¥Í±B³à "Chinese Birthday, Wedding, Funeral and Other Customs" by J.G. Cormack, publ. by La Librairie Francaise, Peking & Tientsin and printed by The Commercial Press, Peking, Branch Works, 1923. The book records the regional customs of Beijing area and also describes the marriage of the ex-emperor as recorded by an eye-witness of the ceremonies and is illustrated with many pretty old photographs.

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - ½º¹Ú²ª
My Poetry

The best place to read about Chinese Weddings is the web site maintained by the Chinese Historical Cultural Society at San Jose Calif.

click here. Enjoy, and tell us how you make out.

Your contribution to the discussion page has greatly enriched this website. Your knowledge and love for Chinese culture is greatly appreciated. In this forum, all are entitled to express their opionion and we learn things from one another.

Have you tried to download Unionway ( www.unionway.com )? Once you have downloaded this software, you can input Chineses words easily. As a Cantonese and not well versed in Mandarin and pinyin, sometimes I have to guess what those pin-yin mean in Chinese. With Chinese words included in the discussion, I will know for sure. Give it a try.

Congratulations to your great effort for introducing the Euproean poetry to us. And thank you Siu Leung for translating those poetry for us. Your translation is so "Chinese" that without telling anybody that it is a translation, one would have thought it is an original Chinese poetry.

I listened to both versions of the recital and I like them both. If you ask me which is a better dialect when it comes to reciting poetry, I say it is your own mother dialect, or the dialect that you are most comfortable with. While there are scholars who claim that Cantonese or some southern dialects are more "original" and closer to the "olden" dialect, the claim is not conclusive and it is not known to what extent and how close are those dialects to the original dialect. In fact, what is the original dialect ? Our ancient poets came from different times and provinces, they all spoke different dialects. When they wrote poetry, I am sure they spoke and wrote them with their own dialects, although the written words were the same. For that matter, I find some poems are "better" when recited in Mandarin or other dialects.

Take popular songs for example. Is it better to write them in Cantonese and sing them in Cantonese or in Mandarin ? Since the dialects are so different, they rhyme differently. We have to have the words written differently even when we are using the same music. Many singers and writers will tell you that it is "better" to write songs in Mandarin and sing them in Mandarin than in Cantonese. I, for one, agree to this assessment. Cantonese sound, like it or not, is "blunt" while Mandarin is more "soft" and for that matter, many love songs are better sung in Mardarin than in Cantonese. What I am trying to say is, while it is generally accepted that southern dialects retain many sounds and words that are closer to the olden dialects, it is not conclusive enough to claim that poetry is "better" recited in southern dialects than mandarin.

Dear friends of the forum, I just want you to know that Siu-Leung and I have started a little project with translations of East European poetry to the Chinese language. Up to the moment, there are two pieces of poetry of famous Mihai Eminescu (Romania) ¦Ì®ü·R±Ó¤º«ä­W and Sandor Petoefi (Hungary) ¤s´çº¸Å¯¯S´´ available. Eminescu's more romantic poem 'Sleepy Birds' ('Somnoroase pasarele') is in modern Chinese ¥Õ¸Ü and in wu jueh-style ¤­µ´, Petoefi's 'The Clouds Descending ...' ('Ereszkedik le a felhoe ...') is in ancient C'hu-style ·¡ (ÄÌ) - with its characteristic 'ah/alas' ¤¼ after each second line. I think my friend Siu-Leung did a great job with the translations, and I'm wondering what's your opinion on the East European poems' content expressed in ancient Chinese! What of the poets' poetical thoughts and sentiments are able to arrive you - not knowing the originals - conveyed through the Chinese medium?

As there was recently discussed here, wether the southern Chinese dialects sound more poetically (i.e. more appropriate to the ancient originals' pronunciation) than Mandarin, here are two versions of Petoefi's poem in Mandarin and Cantonese dialect. Decide which one you like best (Julian!!!). As for me (and Ming?), I like the Mandarin one - the only one I can understand :((.

Thanks to Dr. Siu-Leung Lee for his work - we'll go ahead with it!

Wish you all 'Happy Easter' holidays - ¯¬§A­ÌÎ`¬¡¸`§Ö¼Ö¡I

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - ½º¹Ú²ª
My Poetry

I just looked up Ming's page for the 8 immortals. In the picture there are 8 of them but it is so dark , some might not show well. Tie Guai Li is the one second from the bottom.
To standardize the names in the table (in parenthesis) which currently has some names inverted, I am providing the following in Romanization and their representation:
LI Tie Guai §õÅK©ä (Li T'ieh-kuai)- ugly and sick beggar
ZHONG Li Quan ÁéÂ÷Åv¡Aº~ÁéÂ÷(Chu'an Chung-Li) - high ranking military
LAN Cai He ÂŪö©M - poor folk musician, a boy
ZHANG Guo-Lao ±iªG¦Ñ(Lao Chang-kuo) - old prophet
HE Xian Gu ¦ó¥P©h( Ho Hsien-ku )- the only female in the group
LU Dong Bin §f¬}»« ( Lu Tung-pin) - wise Daoist
HAN Xiang Zi Áú´ð¤l (Han Hsiang-tzu ) - handsome scholar giving up official title
CAO Guo Jiu ±ä°ê¸¤(Ts'ao Kuo-ch'iu ) - repented rich and powerful

Most of these figures were said to exist in the Tang and Five-Dynastty to Song period. The story of 8 immortals started in Yuan dynasty and developed through Ming dynasty when the female was added. It was said that a Daoist Qiu Chu Ji ¥C³B¾÷ in the Yuan dynasty first started the mythology to promote Daoism. Because there are a lot of interesting stories about these mythical figures incorporated into operas and storytelling, they are well known by all the people.

I know little about Japanese literature, etc. But it suprise me that there are only 7 immortals. How did you reach this point?

In my page on 8 immortals in Chinese mythology, I show a painting in the Mitshubishi collection. It has 8 immortals. Please take a look.

There are some variations on who the 8 immortals are. But Tieh Guai Lee is one of the very important one. And it is possible that he is not a mythical but a real person.

Let me take a first crack. To put it in very simplistic terms, Chinese culture and western culture have certain fundamental differences that may warrant in depth studies. I am trying to lay out some concepts here, emphasizing that there are plenty of exceptions to the norm.

Chinese culture - "Yin", water, compromising, harmony seeking, inward looking, passive, nature and resource sensitive, conservative. middle roader, relative truth, fussy logic

Western culture - "Yang", fire, confronting, aggressive, expansive, outward looking, active, exploitive, extreme and absolute truth.

Some of the words may already have negative connotations as perceived in different cultures. Please read it in a NEUTRAL SENSE. I had this comparison in mind for years and somehow found similar views and agreement in an article on managerial styles of East and West.

I am talking about comparison in a general sense. Chinese culture by its nature of passiveness and compromising has absorbed many characteristics of western culture now. By Western culture, I mean Roman/Greek derived civilizations.

A frequent point of interest and debate is how "religious" are Chinese? How is social order kept without an omnipresent and ultimate God like in Christianity? What role does Buddhism/Daoism/Confucianism play in Chinese culture?

It is especially important for us in the 21st century to reflect the fate of our planet both in view of natural resources and social order/stability.

Yugoslavia is being bombed and the Balkans is again the focus of a major international conflict at this juncture of East and West. It is particularly significant to examine how conflicts are resovled in difference cultures.

Yes. Same person but different transliterations of his name into English.

In earlier times (19-th century onward) the most prevalent system of transliteration is the so-called Wad-Giles. And there were many other systems.

Since the 1950s, the Pinyin system has come into use more and more.

Look at Greg Gao's wonderful website, and you will see the two spellings given side-by-side. Plus the English translations of many great poems.

In addition to the confusion arising from the different ways to render Chinese names, many poets, writers, painter and literateri persons often use "pen names" in their work, which add more complexities to the situation. :-(

I concur with Julius about viewing the movie.
There is a site about the background of ladies' dress here
Qing, the last dynasty, Dynasty lasted 300 years until 1911. The rulers were Manchu's who came from Manchuria,with their language, culture, and dresses. During their reign, they adopted the "Chinese" language and culture. Men gave up their style of clothing. They gave up everything, except the ladies dress! The "Chinese" women wore the "Manchu" style dress , which is called "Qi" dress, as "Qi" is the name for "Manchu". In English the style is commonly called "cheongsam" (Cantonese pronounciation here!) which is literally "long dress".