Readers' Discussions, Comments & Inquiries


Archived pages


SUBJECT:
Western Zhou
COMMENT:
April 28, 1999 To Whom it may concern, I am a research student at Bronx Science, engaged in a semester-long research project which examines, in part, the hypotheses of T.H. Von Laue and Arnold Toynbee with regard to the dynamics of history. More specifically, I am looking at the Western Zhou Dynasty and asking the following general questions: How important a role did the forces of circumstance (e.g. geography) play in the formation and accomplishments of that society? What, in your opinion, was the greatest challenge faced by that society and how successfully did it meet this challenge? In the course of my research I have consulted Grolier's Encyclopedia and A History of Chinese Civilizations. I have also written to Professor Neskar of Stanford University and to Professor Li of Columbia University. I am hoping to elicit the opinions of yourself and of other interested members of the American Oriental Society on the above and related questions. Any electronic and/or hard copy materials which you choose to share with me will be welcomed as will the names and affiliations of members with whom you feel I should touch base. My research efforts culminate in mid-May. Any help/advice which you would be willing to share with me would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Respectfully Kevin Hu 147-25 77ave Flushing, New York 11367 Chin0Kev@aol.com Please email me bak any opinions you may have. Thanks.
FROM:Kevin <Chin0kev@aol.com>
NYC, NY United States - Friday, April 30, 1999 at 21:44:31 (PD
SUBJECT:
±i¿Å - ¬L ©ú ¤å ¿ï .
COMMENT:
I have the book ¬L ©ú ¤å ¿ï . at
http://www.chinapage.org/big5/literature.html

FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Friday, April 30, 1999 at 11:26:42 (PD
SUBJECT:
±i¿Å
COMMENT:
Dear Tin-kay,

±i¿Å 's more famous works are collected in the book of ¬L ©ú ¤å ¿ï .
FROM:Julian Yiu
Canada - Friday, April 30, 1999 at 07:31:18 (PD


SUBJECT:
Mother's Love poem ©s­¥¡G´å¤l§u - second try
COMMENT:
I left out part of Meng Jiao's poem. Here it is again:

Yarns after yarns, Mother's busy weaving,
It is a coat for my son who will be leaving.
Stitches upon stitches, Mother toiled all night,
Please return home soon if you might.

Your graceful love was sunshine in the spring
for me, this unworthy seedling,
Oh, who can tell me how to express my gratitude,
my aching heart is bleeding.

·O¥À¤â¤¤½u
´å¤l¨­¤W¦ç
Á{¦æ±K±KÁ_
·N®£¿ð¿ðÂk
½Ö¨¥¤o¯ó¤ß
³ø±o¤T¬K·u

Bing Xin ¦B¤ß (Á°û¼ü), the most revered Chinese female writer of the 20th century, just died on Feb 28, 1999 at the age of 99. She has written numerous works on Mother's love.
Here's a site with many of her works:
http://www.cnstar.com/bingxin/

FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
COlumbus, OH USA - Friday, April 30, 1999 at 03:36:57 (PD
SUBJECT:
±i¿Å (Zhang Heng,78 -139 A.D.)
COMMENT:
±i¿Å (Zhang Heng,78 -139 A.D.)

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FROM:R. Chiang <chiangr@vancouver.quik.com>
- Friday, April 30, 1999 at 02:16:14 (PD
SUBJECT:
Poems of ZhangHeng (Chang Heng)
COMMENT:
Dear Prof I was reading a biographical article on Arthur Waley, which mentioned that Waley's favourite poem was the Han Dynasty ZhangHeng's or Chang Heng's (±i¿Å) Bones of ZhuangZi. Most Westerners interested in China would know that Waley had many translations of Chinese poems and classical works, but alas his translations were never accompanied by the Chinese text. Waley was a most interesting character in the sense that he mastered the Chinese language without even setting foot on China, unlike most early Western sinologists who were either missionaries or academics.Indeed, on reading Waley's powerful translation of the Bones of ZhuangZi in English, I feel I have missed something not found in most Chinese poetry books. I have tried to look for ZhangHeng's poems in Chinese but could only locate the (¥|·T¦±). I shall be most grateful if you or other readers esp.SiuLeung, Julian Yiu or Stephen Huang can help to give me the Chinese text of Bones of ZhuangZi or The Dancers of Huinan. Many thanks Tin-Kay
FROM:tin-Kay Goh <tinkgoh@ozemail.com.au>
Sydney, NSW Australia - Thursday, April 29, 1999 at 17:02:31 (PD
SUBJECT:
—V Žq ‹á
COMMENT:
This poem was by Meng Jiao. It is Number 046 in the "Book of 300 Selected Tang Poetry", the most widely read book of poetry of all times in China.

The complete text can be found at http://www.chinapage.org/tang300.html
It was the first major digital effort done even before WWW and Internet. The poetry was posted by email, at the time that the email system could only support 7-bit codings. We had to convert every word from 8-bit to 7-bit using a scheme called HZ. The HZ file was sent out. Upon receiving, it had to be re-converted back to 8-bit BIG5 before viewing. There was no such thing as online viewing of Chinese.

FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Thursday, April 29, 1999 at 16:04:42 (PD


SUBJECT:
¹C ¤l §u
COMMENT:
Dear S.L.,

Nice translation.

The poem you translated was ¹C ¤l §u by a famous Tang poet ©s ­¥ . Your translation comes at a very opportune time. May all mothers have a happy Mother's Day on May 9th.

Jack, thanks to Dr. Pei, I hope you are able to find some Chinese sayings and quotes in the Book of Filial Piety. If you are looking for stories ( real stories ), there is book on the famous Twenty Four Pious Children whose stories are told to children in China from generation to generation. I am not sure if this book in available on the net or if there is a translated version of it. I hope other readers can give you more information.
FROM:Julian Yiu
Canada - Thursday, April 29, 1999 at 15:00:13 (PD


SUBJECT:
Poem on Mother's love on the eve of Mohter's Day
COMMENT:
I have translated a famous Chinese poem on a Mother's love for her son who is about to leave home:


Yarns upon yarns, Mother busy weaving,

It is a coat for my son who will be leaving.

Stitches upon stitches, Mother toiled all night,

Please return home soon if you might.


·O¥À¤â¤¤½u

´å¤l¨­¤W¦ç

Á{¦æ±K±KÁ_

·N®£¿ð¿ðÂk

I am not sure of the name of the author and date for the poem, but a song has been composed by Li Bao Chen §õ©ê§Õ on it. I believe all Chinese can sing this one. For oversea Chinese who left home for years without returning, this is a eye-watering scene.

FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
COlumbus, OH USA - Thursday, April 29, 1999 at 08:35:35 (PD


SUBJECT:
Happy Mother's Day
COMMENT:
Dear Jack:

The great Confucius wrote a whole book on Filial Piety. I have the whole text in both Chinese and English translation.
http://www.chinapage.com/confucius/confucius.html
I won't give you a quote. Read it yourself and pick out what you like.
Ming (Guttenberg, NJ)

FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Thursday, April 29, 1999 at 06:58:09 (PD


SUBJECT:
chinese sayings or quotes about mother or mother's day
COMMENT:
Hi, I tried looking everywhere, But i can't find anything chinese on mother or mother's day. please help me!!
FROM:JACK <HEHEQ@aol.com>
fort lee, nj america - Wednesday, April 28, 1999 at 19:39:59 (PD
SUBJECT:
Zhongping Reign
COMMENT:
Can Anyone explain who the Great Tudor is? And also i read about some writings on this bronze mirror; this man was secretly refining white brass; can anybody explain what that may have meant? (This all happened on the Wu day of the fifth month of the fourth year of the Zhongping reign.Thank U ANYBODY!
FROM:David James <whytjade@bluemoon.net>
Buffalo, ny - Tuesday, April 27, 1999 at 19:35:07 (PD
SUBJECT:
Pu Jie, Pu Ru, two different persons
COMMENT:
I plead ignorance. I did not know that Pu Ru had a brother named Pu Jie.
FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Sunday, April 25, 1999 at 17:28:36 (PD
SUBJECT:
·Á ¾§ ¡A ·Á ³Ç
COMMENT:
Dear Stephen,

You are correct. ·Á ¾§ and ·Á ³Ç are two different persons. ·Á ³Ç is the brother of ·Á »ö . ·Á ¾§ is a famous painter and calligrapher and he is better known by his other name ·Á ¤ß Ú®
FROM:Julian Yiu
Canada - Sunday, April 25, 1999 at 13:29:48 (PD


SUBJECT:
Pu Jie, Pu Ru, two different persons
COMMENT:
Dear Ming: Is this correct? Pu Jie (·Á³Ç) is Pu Ru (·Á¾§)? Please correct me, if I am wrong. To my knowledge, they are two different persons.
FROM:Stephen Hwang <formosa@webzone.net>
Tulsa, OK USA - Sunday, April 25, 1999 at 07:50:24 (PD
SUBJECT:
Chao MengFu
COMMENT:
Mr PEi Have you received the graphics files that I sended you on tuesday, April 20 ? Maybee I made error ?
FROM:Alain MOLL <a.moll@ac-nancy-metz.fr>
France - Sunday, April 25, 1999 at 02:31:06 (PD
SUBJECT:
Pu Jie is Pu Ru
COMMENT:
Robert:

There are several paintings by Pu Ru here.

Look under "paintings" and "Main Paintings"
FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Saturday, April 24, 1999 at 17:14:49 (PD


SUBJECT:
Pu Jie
COMMENT:
Can anybody help me find information on the Calligraphy artist "Pu Jie"? I have a calligraphy from him and would like to find out more information. My understanding is that "Pu Jie" was the brother of the last emporer of China, Pu Yi. Thanks and have a great day.
FROM:Robert Baker <mi2inc@magicnet.net>
Orlando, FL USA - Saturday, April 24, 1999 at 13:54:02 (PD
SUBJECT:
Chang Dai-chien in California
COMMENT:
Chang Dai-chien in California

Exhibition at San Francisco State University

More info, images and bibliography available at:

http://www.sfsu.edu/~allarts/chang/changpr.html



San Francisco State University presents "Chang Dai-chien in California", an

exhibition of 50 paintings by the acclaimed Chinese artist, September 26

through November 20, 1999 in the Art Department Gallery in the Fine Arts

Building on the university's campus. "Chang Dai-chien in California" is the

first exhibition of work made by Chang during his residency on the Monterey

Peninsula from 1967 to 1977, a period when he developed a "splashed ink"

technique and radical media handling evocative of Abstract Expressionism.

"Chang Dai-chien in California" commemorates the 100th anniversary of the

artist's birth and is presented as part of SFSU's Centennial Celebration.

The exhibition and symposium are cosponsored by the Fine Arts Museums of

San Francisco and the National Museum of History of Taiwan.



The best-known Chinese painter of the 20th century, Chang Dai-Chien

(1899-1983) is often referred to as the "Picasso of China" and is believed

to have produced nearly 30,000 original works. During nearly 30 years

living in the Americas (Brazil and California), Chang developed stylistic

innovations that revolutionized traditional Chinese painting. However, his

work is rarely considered outside the context of this literati tradition,

even in such important exhibitions as "Challenging the Past: The Paintings

of Chang Dai-Chien," which was organized in 1991 by the Arthur M. Sackler

Gallery of the Smithsonian Institution and later traveled to the Asia

Society in New York City and the St. Louis Art Museum.



"This exhibition is the most important Bay Area display of Chang's artistic

achievement since the 1972 retrospective at the Asian Art Museum in San

Francisco," says Mark Johnson, professor of art and director of the SFSU

Art Department Gallery. "This is also the best opportunity ever to consider

the importance of Chang's California paintings, which are very clearly

inspired by the region's natural landmarks such as Big Sur and Yosemite."



Following World War II, Chang was frequently forced to live abroad due to

social crises in China. In the late 1960s Chang acquired two homes on the

near Carmel on the Monterey Peninsula, which would become his principal

residence for the next decade. His home became an important destination for

artists from throughout Northern California, and he showed his work in

exhibitions at several Bay Area venues. Chang was acquainted with many

prominent California art figures, including Ansel Adams and James Cahill.

Chang's widow and many children and grandchildren continue to reside on the

central California coast.



The gala opening reception on Sunday, September 26 for Chang Dai-chein in

California will be preceded by a symposium in the Trustees Auditorium of

the M.H. de Young Memorial Museum in Golden Gate Park. Speakers will

include several prominent scholars and artists acquainted with Chang,

including James Cahill, Michael Sullivan, C.C. Wang and others. Chang

Dai-chein in California represents the latest example of SFSU's commitment

to research and exhibition of the creative legacy of Asian American artists

active in the state. Previous exhibitions have included With New Eyes:

Toward an Asian American Art History in the West in 1995 and Sino Ka?/Ano

Ka?: San Francisco Babaylan in 1998. The university also received a $82,900

grant in 1997 from the National Endowment for the Humanities to produce a

directory of Asian Amerian artists active in California from 1840 to 1965.



What:

Art Exhibition

Chang Dai-chien in California

When:

September 26 - November 20, 1999

Reception:

Sunday, September 26, 2 - 4 pm

Where:

Art Department Gallery, Fine Arts Building

San Francisco State University, 1600 Holloway Avenue

Hours:

Tuesday - Saturday, 12 - 4 pm; Wednesday, 12 - 7 pm

Admission:

Free

Info:

415/338-6535

www.sfsu.edu/~allarts


FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Thursday, April 22, 1999 at 17:36:42 (PD
SUBJECT:
Cantonese Opera
COMMENT:
Dear Ming,

While most westerners are familiar with the Beijing Opera, Cantonese operas are very popular outside China as well. In Edmonton, Canada alone, there are more than 5 Cantonese Opera Clubs. Each year, there are something like 10 public shows performed by the local talents.

The following website is the best one that I can find so far and it is worth a visit by all who want to know more about Chinese operas other than the Beijing Opera.

http://members.aol.com/canopera/
FROM:Julian Yiu
Edmonton, Canada - Thursday, April 22, 1999 at 12:28:48 (PD


SUBJECT:

COMMENT:
I will be very happy if I can enjoy more Peking opera music at your station.
FROM:David
- Wednesday, April 21, 1999 at 23:54:33 (PD
SUBJECT:
URL Submission
COMMENT:
My site deals with Chinese philosophy and poetry of the T'ang era. I introduce surfers to somebooks of mine: An Anthology of Chinese Philosophy, Living by Taoism, A History of Ch'an Buddhism, An Anthology of Ch'an Buddhism, and many others. I try to combine Chinese and Western philosophy in a path toward Self-Realization.
FROM:Leonardo Arena <leonardo@jth.it>
Rom, I Italy - Tuesday, April 20, 1999 at 14:59:56 (PD
SUBJECT:
Poem translated on War:
Miklos Radnoti 'Forced March'/¾Ä¾Ô

COMMENT:

Dear Readers, the Hungarian soldier mentioned by Dr. Lee is a well-known poet who died in later Yugoslavia in autumn 1944. The poem beautifully translated into T'ang-Chinese was one of his last lines discovered in the pockets of his uniform when the poet finally was found in a mass grave. We both are thinking that this piece of poetry - unfortunately - seems to be quite matching with these days of war down in Kosovo and Serbia (yet, can we call these incredible and dreadful cruelties toward civilians - children, olds and women most encluded - really 'war', these raping and mutilating militiamen really 'soldiers'?).
Miklos (Nicolas) Radnoti (pron.: Miklo:sh Rodno:ti) was a real soldier, fighting for his home he was bearing in his heart - and therefore resisting as long as he could to give in and surrender to the sweet persuasion of dying - and, indeed, first of all he was a poet ...

You can find the original poem's text and sound with several translations (German and English) and Dr. Lee's Chinese translation added as a graphic file at http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/RADNOTI.HTML. Some notes to the translation etc. are to be found here.

Thanks again to Siu-Leung Lee for his work.

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - ½º¹Ú²ª
My Poetry


FROM:A.W. Tueting <Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de>
¼}¥§¶Â, ¼w°ê - Tuesday, April 20, 1999 at 12:47:20 (PD
SUBJECT:
Poem translated on War
COMMENT:
I have translated a poem by a Hungarian soldier, who died on the battlefield of Yugoslavia during WW2. This is dedicated to those who are suffering the perpetual war from ethnic hatreds. May such poem be never written again if we as a human race can learn something from history.

¾Ä¾Ô

«ã±N¦å¬Vª×¨F³õ
¾Ä°_µS¾Ô¤£ÅU¶Ë
¨R¾W³´°}¦p®i¯Í
Â_ªÏ´§»R©Ê­Y¨g

¾ÔÀ¢©Û§Ú¦p¾yÃS
ÁöµM¨­±Ñ¥¼´±¤`
¦ó¬°´Ý¯Ê¤´¦z¥ß
¥J²Ó»P§g»¡ºÝªø

¦nº~¥X©º§â®a§Ñ
·R©d²\¬ß¦Ñ·T¶Ë
­·¹Ð½ª¤ÑÅfµL¤é
®aÀðÀZ±Ñ§õ¾ð¶À

±r«Þ¤£§Ô¬G¶é¯î
¦t¨ÌµM¯D¯Ú¶§
¶Ô¸Á¾x¾xª§ÆC»e
³³¾KªÚÄÉ®L¹Ú¶o

ºñ½®±C®PªG¥¿­»
ªâ©g¦î¥ß«ÝÆX®Ç
±ý¹ï¨Î¤H¾®¬Û±æ
¤é¼v½w²¾²ö¦­ªø

¦ó®É¤Û¼v«D¹Ú·Q
¤ë¶ê¤µ¤i§ó¯«¼Ü
¾Ô¤ÍÀW¶Ê¥B²ö¥h
Äâ§^»î¾zÂk¬G¶m

- §õ¥ü¨}Ķ©ó1999¡C4¡C19 For the original poem, please see:
http://www.muc.de/~tueting/MYPOEMS.RXML

FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Tuesday, April 20, 1999 at 09:13:05 (PD


SUBJECT:
Dragon
COMMENT:
Consonni:

Have you looked at the Tatoo page, and the pages under languages? One suggestion is to use the Chinese word Dragon, instead of a picture of dragon.

Currently the best-seen tatto is on the arm of NBA basketball player Camby.


FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Monday, April 19, 1999 at 12:39:48 (PD


SUBJECT:
Chao MengFu
COMMENT:
Did you look at the Paintings and the Calligraphy pages in this web site? His paintings and calligraphy are represented there.

Tell us the details of the item, and we will try to help.
FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 12:01:40 (PD


SUBJECT:

COMMENT:
I need help. I'm searching someone able to translate three calligraphies. (With, if possible, détails about the calligrapher : There is a seal after the signature.) They are written on a painting made by Chao MengFu. Thank you for your help. Alain MOLL
FROM:Alain MOLL <a.moll@ac-nancy-metz.fr>
FRANCE - Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 10:57:53 (PD
SUBJECT:
Chao MengFu
COMMENT:
I need help. I'm searching someone able to translate three calligraphies.( With, if possible, details about the calligrapher : There is a seal after the signature.) They are written on a painting made by Chao MengFu. Thank you for your help. Alain MOLL
FROM:Alain MOLL <a.moll@ac-nancy-metz.fr>
FRANCE - Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 10:51:16 (PD
SUBJECT:
Travel in Sichuan
COMMENT:
Dear Prof. I have just returned from a tour of Sichuan and would like to share my experience to update your viewers on Jiu3 Zhai4 Gou1 and San1 Xing1 Dui1.

JiuZhaiGou1 (Nine Fortress Gorge) is a major attraction as an UNESCO world heritage site, together with HuangLong, another world heritage site. The road from Chengdu is good though there are occasional rock or mud slide from the hill slopes. The journey takes 12 hours, preferably broken into two sections, as night travelling can be hazardous. There are now good hotels, which are mandatory for comfort in the provision of heated rooms with attached, working toilets and warm water for shower.

The area can be considered the most beautiful waterfall wonderland, with clean streams, lakes and forests. No private vehicles are allowed in as the park provides excellent shuttle service in pollution free LPG buses. One should stay at least two days to enjoy and digest the beauty of the place. The park road is Y-shaped, starting with the entrance at the base of the Y. One should walk the sector from before Shu4Zheng4Zhai4 (Straight Trees Fortress) to the Lao2Hu3Hai3 (Tiger Lake), getting off the road to see nature's water cascades and tresses, passing through the short trees. Further up to the left fork road of the Y, is the famous Nuo4Ri4Lang3 water fall which is spectacular when the melting snow gives the full impact of its gush of pure white veil.

One must not forget to go to the neighbouring HuangLong (Yellow Dragon)park with its beautiful "celestial" pools.

SanMingDui (Three Star Heap), an hour from Chengdu,was discovered in 1986 and is an enigma to historians because the archeological artefacts look like those from the Shang

Dynasty in North China, yet the Shang Dynasty and subsequent Zhou Dynasty did not establish any link to such a south-western part of China as Sichuan. Indeed some bronze and jade pieces motiffs are similar to those of the Mayan, Aztec or Inca.The artefacts are estimated to be around 2500 to 4000 years old.

The museum, like a five star hotel, is impressive and only opened to the public in 1997. Surprisingly, few locals know about it. The toilet in the museum is the only disappoint-ment as it is really primitive.

Other less publicised sites of historical interest are Su DongPo's house in Meishan (on the road from Chengdu to EmeiShan), LiBai's home, not his birth-place, in JiangYou (just off the road to JianMenShu at MianYang), JianMen Pass of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, WuZeTian's home at GuangYang and the WangJian's Tomb at Chengdu, initially though to be ZhuGeLiang's music pavillion.

I have left out the usual Chengdu tourist highlights.

Tin-Kay

FROM:Tin-Kay Goh <tingkay@ozemail.com.au>
Sydney, NSW Australia - Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 01:30:23 (PD


SUBJECT:
Evolution of Spoken Chinese Language
COMMENT:
There has been a great deal of lively discussions on this topic, and it does not appear that it will end soon.

I hate to call a stop to these discussions, as they are monopolizing this space, but I do want to encourage others to come and post general queries and discussions in this space as well.

So I propose that we temporarily halt further discussions about the topic on the Evolution of Spoken Chinese in this space, and move the topic to a separate Forum, where we will be able to it justice.

I am asking Siu-leung to host the new forum, as he has already written a good deal of background mateiral in his web site.

I will let everyone know if he likes the idea.

Ming

FROM:Ming L Pei <pei@chinapage.org>
- Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 09:16:29 (PD


SUBJECT:
Liberalized use of Language
COMMENT:
Dear Siu-Leung:
I have the same observation that Song language is probably closer to mandarin. The language of §ºµü is obviously more like mandarin. The poem of ¦¶¿Q still rhyme pretty well with Hoklo.
My guessing is that there may be a dramatic changes of language in the chaotic era of ¤­¥N¤Q°ê (five generations ten countries). This actually liberalize the language and the trend continues. The language is more liberal in §ºµü than in Tang poem.
The language of ¦è¹C°O (Trip to the West), which was written in Ming dynasty, is undoubtedly similar to Mandarin. This come back to my point that dialects represent a spectrum in time of language evolution, Hoklo and Hakka as the most ancient and mandarin as the newest. Alfred mentioned that classical Chinese sounds artificial, which mostly originated from the difference in modern Chinese and ancient Chinese. If you read ¥v°O with Hoklo, it will sound much less artificial.

FROM:Stephen Hwang <formosa@webzone.net>
- Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 08:14:22 (PD
SUBJECT:
Dragon's
COMMENT:
A friend of mine is looking for a pic of a chinese dragon to use as tatoo, here in italy is very strong to find it. I'll very happy to help him, but in internet i have found only the same and usually pics. He's a very special friend so i'm looking for a very special image. I have downloaded every pic of the dragons page, but are'nt easy to transform in a simple tatoo. I'll be satisfied in few Url or pic. Greetings from the smallest beautiful country to the biggest one.
FROM:Consonni Daniele <bitmap@iol.it>
Verona, Italy - Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 05:44:16 (PD
SUBJECT:
colloquial Chinese
COMMENT:
Stephen,

Colloquial Chinese ¥Õ¸Ü¤å was popular at least from Song dynasty, although not exactly as today's colloquial Chinese. ¦¶¿Q Zhu Xi's poems are very colloquial. e.g. ¥b¯a¤è¶í¤@ų¶}
¤Ñ¥ú¶³¼v¦@±r«Þ
°Ý´ë¨º±o²M¦p³\
¬°¦³·½ÀY¬¡¤ô¨Ó


FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Friday, April 16, 1999 at 23:50:45 (PD


SUBJECT:
Oops!
COMMENT:
I was wrong on the time when China was unified. Was it aroud 200BC? Please correct me. I am curious about the origin of Hoklo or Holok. Does anybody know the origin?
FROM:Stephen Hwang
- Friday, April 16, 1999 at 22:05:25 (PD
SUBJECT:
º~¤å
COMMENT:
Dear Siu:
Thanks for the comments. I agree the difference between classical Chinese (¤å¨¥¤å) and phonetic Chinese (¥Õ¸Ü¤å) is, as you pointed out, that words added to make sentences flow smoothly and sound more like speech. With the lack of enough characters to express every sound, as in the case in the times of ¤Ó¥v¤½¥q°¨¾E (the great historian: Shi Ma Chian), the written language has to be concise. In fact, I has never seen as beautifully concise paragaphs as ¥v°O. However, my point is again, no matter how concise it was, Shi Ma Chian's written language had been based on spoken tongue of that time. I have already given plenty of examples. Hoklo, in my opinions, is probably very close to the tongue spoken at his time.
I thank God that we have Chinese characters and classical Chinese, otherwise with some dialects as distant as between German and English, China could have been like today's Europe. I also thank God that the idea of writing ¥Õ¸Ü¤å did not really become popular until the 20th century, otherwise with so many dialects today, this is certainly going to creat division. My greatest curiosity is: After ChinShiHuang ¯³©l¬Ó unified China around 400 BC, he unified and simplied the written Chinese characters (®Ñ¦P¤å¨®¦P­y), but there was no mentioning of unifying languages (»y¦P­µ). Could it be possible that the difference between dialects that time is not as not as big as today?

FROM:Stephen Hwang <formosa@webzone.net>
Tulsa, OK USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 21:50:34 (PD
SUBJECT:
verbal and written language
COMMENT:
I think the written Chinese language in ancient time was a very concise and precise tool. Because of the complicated pattern, and to preserve it on oracle bones, it takes time to carve the words, so the written language had to be very brief, but the pattern compensates for ambiguity. However, verbal language is different, the combination of possible sounds is a lot less then the infinite patterns. So more sounds have to be added to avoid ambiguity. To illustrate this there is a funny prose written by Chao Yuan Ren : Mr. Shi of the Stone Chamber likes to eat lion. He often goes to the market....." in written form is : ¥Û«Ç¬I¤ó¡A¶Ý·à¡A®É®É¾A¥«¡A¡C¡C»}­¹¤Q·à¡C¡C¡C" I can't remember the entire article. You can use the same sound with different intonation and create an interesting story. It is hard to comprehend if you just listen to it. But the written words clearly convey the meaning.

Try on your own and type in "shi" in the software and see what kind of story you can make up with just this single sound and four intonations.

Because Chinese is a "visual" language, the verbalization often have to add some additional sounds and thus "Bai Hua" could exist even in ancient time. Obviously, the scholar's verbal capacity is much more sophisticated than than the common folks.

So, I guess the debate between Stephen and Julian could be right on both sides. The ancient scholars could communicate with very precise and concise verbal and written language(¶®¨¥¡A¤å¨¥) for people who are sued to it. But the common folks may have to add a few more sounds to elaborate (¥Õ¸Ü).

In contrast, Roman languages are "audio" or "phono" languages. What is sounded out is written the same way except for the choice of vocabulary.

Cantonese like Hoklo retain many ancient sounds but the corresponding words are now obscure. I see similar Cantonese expressions like the Hoklo expressions brought up by Stephen.

Just a small diversion here. I learned from somewhere that "Hoklo" in fact means Ho Luo ªe¬¥¤H, so it should be HoLok rather than Hoklo. Isn't it? Don't know when this got switched around or if it really sounds ªe¬¥ in Hoklo dialect.
FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Friday, April 16, 1999 at 20:37:04 (PD


SUBJECT:
classical Chinese
COMMENT:
Dear Julian: I hate to bore everybody with this subject. But my point is that there is no possibility that our ancestors have invented a written system that's totally detached from daily speech.
The so-called classical Chinese did not really become "refined" until the second half of Han dynasty. You can look at the language of "Book of History"史記, "History of Three countries"三國志, and "Book of Help in Ruling"資治通鑑(Song dynasty) and find the sentence become more matured. " Book of history" will call earthquack as 地動 (Hoklo still call it this way) instead of more sophisticated way 地震 in the other books. But both these terms exist in daily language, don't they? Classical Chinese is not a foreign language.
The reasons that ordinary people could not write it is because Chinese characters are difficult to master and secondarily because, like I mention in last letter, the spoken language like mandarin is so different from the original Chinese that 史記 was based upon. So mandarin-speaking people won't understand what 有身 means anymore, but Hoklo-speaking people will still understand it.
The reason that I said Classical Chinese was based on spoken tongue is because I found my knowledge of Hoklo helped greatly in reading ancient texts. Let me give another example:論語: 微管仲吾其披髮左衽矣 (Without Guan Chung, we will be dressed like the barbarians, said Confucius). The character 微 (mandarin: wei) means "no" or "without". But why it means this way? If you pronounce it in Hoklo, "Bi or bo", then you understand it right away. Bi and bo, in Hoklo, means no or without. If you pronounce "wei" in mandarin, then it is not obvious at all.
These Characters:微(bi, bo), 不(put), 弗(put), "M"(both cantonese and hoklo have single M as no), 沒(bo or boat), 毋(bu)毋忘在莒, 罔(bong)世襲罔替, 亡(bong)歧路亡羊 all mean "no or without" and have similar consonant "b", "p" or "m".

FROM:Stephen Hwang <formosa@webzone.net>
Tulsa, - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 09:52:27 (PD
SUBJECT:
Ancient languages
COMMENT:
Dear Stephen,

I am still not convinced that Classical Chinese writing was in fact a spoken language at one time. The so called Classical Chinese that we know of today is so refined, concise and structured that a writer needs time to re-construct or convert from the spoken language format to a written format. Another proof is that not everybody could write Classical Chinese. Only learned people could do that. If it was a spoken language then all ancient people should be able to write Classical Chinese as it was “natural” to do so. The fact that all Classical Chinese words came from a spoken language doesn’t constitute that the ancient people would speak like that. It is inconceivable that an ancient dialect ( or language ) could be that refine and beautifully spoken as the written Classical Chinese. This is my biased opinion as I can’t imagine at one time Chinese people would speak their daily language as the written Classical Chinese.
FROM:Julian Yiu
Canada - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 07:43:04 (PD


SUBJECT:
Cultural heritage site
COMMENT:
Let's have a change of topic after some heavy languistic discussion. :) The following is the official site of China's National Administration of Cultural Heritage:
http://www.nach.gov.cn/index.htm
There are plenty of news and graphics of rare findings.

http://www.asiawind.com
FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Friday, April 16, 1999 at 06:36:18 (PD


SUBJECT:
ancient languages
COMMENT:
Dear Stephen & Dr. Lee:

Cold Mountain's poem sounds good in both dialects!
Thank you for your help!
Here is a possible example in the ¥|¨¶ se yiap dialects spoken around Canton, what used to be Nan Hai «n®ü°p in the Ch'in & Han period:
The hoof of animals, ðø derived from ¿á¡Ais also understood as foot or foot steps. To describe a young man hanging around the street (rather than going home) is called "«á¥Í¥Jðø(di-ak)µó" or " the later born kid wondering around the street" , sounding like " hau sang d-oy di-ak gai".
The word is seen in I Ching, hexagram 44 Îl:
ªì¤»¡R¡C¡C¡Cý¨¨§·ðøÄ½¡C
my humble translation for the above is:
"...tie down the hoof of the captures boar...."

This word is also used in the Book of Songs ¸Ö¸g¡C¤p¶®¡R ¦³¨¨¥Õðø¡A "possessing a pig with white hoof"¡D
I would appreciate feedback on the pronounciation and possible use of the word §§ in the context of swollen, injured, and indeed ripe (as in fruit):
²a«n¤H©I§§¬°¶Ë¡C
º¸¶®¡R¤K¤ë¬°§§. ¦p¬î²`ª«§§ ¡]º¦).
my speculation is that: §§ = µÈ = ¸~ = ¶Ë Hexagram 34 ¤j§§¡R ªì¤E¡R§§¤_³k¡A©º¤¿¡A¦³§·¡C 9 at the first line: Injured the toe.......
I recognize that this approach to understanding the I Ching is a no no, but I find it rewarding...

FROM:R. Chiang <chiangr@vancouver.quik.com>
- Friday, April 16, 1999 at 00:20:43 (PD
SUBJECT:
Classical Chinese (¤å¨¥¤å) and Ancient Chinese (¥jº~»y)
COMMENT:
Dear Julian:
I am not stating that Mandarin is a foreign language. Of course, Mandarin retains certain amount of ancient pronunciations. It simply preserves less when compared to southern dialects. Siu and I have provided a lot of examples here already. I view Chinese dialects, northern or southern, as a spectrum. Living language fossils, like Hoklo and Hakka, represent the most ancient form while Mandarin is on the other end of spectrum. If you speak both Mandarin and one of these southern dialect, you can easily find the other dialects fall in between these two extremes. I bet that's why the great linguist ªL»y°ó brag about learing a new dialect in two weeks. He was bilingual in both Hoklo and Mandarin. When I first learned to speak Cantonese, I compared Mandarin, Cantonese, and Hoklo, and found a " rule" that works most of time. Learning a dialect becomes so easy with knowledge of these two dialects.
It is too bad that I can give you examples to prove that Hoklo preserves a lot of ancient classical Chinese-like sentences by directly "speak" on the internet. For example: Has he eaten yet? Hoklo: ¥ì­¹¥ç¥¼? [yee chiah iah be?]; Mandarin: ¨Óª±´Ñ¤l¨à¦n¶Ü? Hoklo: ¨Ó«Ù´Ñ¦n§_? [Lai yee kee ho bo?} ; Mandarin: §Ú¨Ó¤F, Hoklo: §Ú¨Ó¤] [ goa lai ya} etc etc
There are many examples: chasing is called "³v" (jiok); turing is called "ºW" (oat); choosing is called "²" (keng); catching is called "Äá" (liah); throwing is called "ÂY" (tan); holding something is called "´£" (teh) ¤Ó¯ª´£¤T¤Ø¼C±Ù¥Õ³D°_¸q covering is called "µ¿" (hip); running is called "¨«" (chau); rice soup is called "ÁS" (be or moai) ¦ó¤£­¹¦×ÁS? ; hitting something is called "µZ" (tok); exposing under the sun is called "¼É" (pak); Rice that still has the shells on is called "½^" (Chek-a); Room is called "®c" or "¶¡" ( in Hoklo: keng).etc etc These are all characters or words commonly used in classical Chinese.
From the natural history of human evolution, we know there was spoken language before written language. Human beings invented written languages to record spoken languages. I cannot find an exception. There could be no reasons that our ancestors could be stupid enough to invent a written language that's totally different from spoken one? There might have been not enough characters to make the sentences flow smoothly, but these classical texts have got to be closely related to the spoken one. My theory is that, after the original Chinese was altered by wars, invasions and became diversified into hundreds of dialects, the written language was kept the same to ensure that people who speak different dialects can still communicate at least on paper. Those characters that used to represent truely daily language are no longer used and only used in classical texts. (examples like above) So, ÁS became µ}¶º; µZ became ºV; ¨« became ¶]; ¼É became ®Í; ¥ì became ¥L; ¹© became Áç¤l; ¦³¨­ became Ãh¥¥; ¤ªº¸ became ¦p¦¹³o¯ë. Classical Chinese became "classical" because the modern Chinese like mandarin cannot relate to the ancient spoken Chinese anymore. Logically, ¤å¨¥¤å has got to be written form of the ancient spoken tongue. I welcome argument about this.

FROM:Stephen Hwang <formosa@webzone.net>
Tulsa, OK USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 20:40:51 (PD
SUBJECT:
Classical Chinese is a spoken language
COMMENT:
Dear Stephen,

I am sure most readers agree that southern dialects retain more ancient words and "original" sounds than northern dialects as supported by your example. There is no debating there as far as I go. However, I also believe all dialects retain certain ancient sounds that are unique to their dialects, whether southern or northern. I hope northern dialect speaking readers can quote some of the examples to enrich our knowledge in this topic.

You said "In fact, the classical Chinese (¤å¨¥¤å) was the ancient form of spoken Chinese (¥Õ¸Ü¤å). " This is the first time I hear such statement and I am very interested to learn more about it. Can you give us some examples ? To me, classical Chinese words are concised writings of everyday colloqial saying.
FROM:Julian Yiu
Canada - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 17:21:23 (PD


SUBJECT:
Oracle bone input etc.
¥Ò°©¤å¿é¤Jªk

COMMENT:

Running through old sources, I re-read an article in 'Chinesisch & Computer', 4/1989, introducing a system for oracle bone character input, developed by Fan Yuzhou ­S·¶©P and a couple of other scientists in cooperation with the universities of Nanjing «n¨Ê, Henan ªe«n and Soochow Ĭ¦{. At that time the system based on PC DOS, but I think that meanwhile - since time went by - there are platforms for it more up to date now. The input system was/is a graphic-semantical scheme for 4-figures code ¥Ò°©¤å¸q§Î¥|¦ìµ¥ªø½X¿é¤J½X¥» to address the graphies (only about some more than 1000 of them are already known by their meaning - not too few of them still unknown by their pronunciation). The ¸q§Î½X divide the graphies in main groups according to their meaning (as e.g. ¤Ñ¤z¡B¦aªK¡B¤HÅé¡B­s¤H¡B¤RªÁ¡Bµ{¿× or ¦X¤å); they're addressed by inputting the first (latin) character named according the initial of the group's name. The next character chooses one of the radical's groups displayed (the jiaguwens have their own special radicals) e.g. the hand radical group ¤â³¡, the next one determines a subgroup and the last one selects the oracle bone graphy. In principle, the groups are divided into 26 units each (although some containing only a few subunits). The author says that this modern system is able to save a lot of time producing jiaguwen layout texts (up to then, there was still a four to five years period of time between the ready manuscript and the product finished).

I'd appreciate if anybody would be able to tell me more about the further developement of ¥Ò°©¤å¿é¤J¨t²Î up to the moment. Maybe there is a similar system for ª÷¦r too.

Alfred

BTW, did anybody of you having knowledge of southern Chinese dialects experience ancient poetry rhyming in Mandarin while not in the dialects?
Stephen, I'd like to learn more about the fact(?) that ancient ¤å (i.e. written language) was the one (or at least similar to those) spoken by southern dialect speaking people. It usually is taught that written language is totally different from spoken language(s) and rather artificial. Or do you just want to say that there are words (e.g. binoms) in ancient written language used also in spoken language (or viceversa)?

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - ½º¹Ú²ª
My Poetry


FROM:A.W. Tueting <Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de>
¼}¥§¶Â, ¼w°ê - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 11:27:32 (PD
SUBJECT:
Poem recitation in Hakka
COMMENT:
Poem recited in Hakka:

§^¤ß¦ü¬î¤ë
ng1 sim4 tzi4 qiu4 ngiat6
ºÑ¼æ²M²®¼ä
bit43 taam1 qin34 giao43 giat43
µLª«³ô¤ñ­Û
mao1 moot6 ham4 bi43 lin1
±Ð§Ú¦p¦ó»¡
gao6 ngai1 yee1 ho1 siat6
The numbers are musical tones. When two are put together, that is a legato from first to second.
Managing Mandarin is bad enough for English speaking people. I hope this theme is not scaring all the non-Chinese speakers off. :)


FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 11:15:27 (PD


SUBJECT:
´H¤s¦x¸Ö
COMMENT:
Dear friends, the following is the pronunciations in Hoklo of ´H¤s¦x¸Ö
§^¤ß¦ü¬î¤ë
ngo sim su chhiu goat
ºÑ¼æ²M²®¼ä
pek tam cheng ka kat
µLª«³ô¤ñ­Û
bu but kam pi lun
±Ð§Ú¦p¦ó»¡
ka goa ju ho soat
I only wish that I can figure out the sound file so I can share my singing (§u gim) of this poem with everybody. Thanks.

FROM:Stephen Hwang <formosa@webzone.net>
Tulsa, OK USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 10:08:38 (PD
SUBJECT:
poem and ancient sounds
COMMENT:
Rudy,
If you are looking for rhyming, the 3 key words rhyme in Hakka :
¤ë ngiat
¼ä giat
»¡ siat

In Mandarin, it is quite off.
FROM:SL Lee <sllee@asiawind.com>
- Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 06:56:52 (PD


SUBJECT:
Ancient Sounds & word usages
COMMENT:
Dear Dr. Lee & Stephen:

Thank you very much for the pronounciations & the quick turn around!

I wonder if you would be kind enough to sound out Cold Mountain's poem in both Hakka & Hoklo for us?
§^ ¤ß ¦ü ¬î ¤ë ¡A ºÑ ¼æ ²M ²® ¼ä ¡F
µL ª« ³ô ¤ñ ­Û ¡A ±Ð §Ú ¦p ¦ó »¡ ¡H
Would there be any difference in the pronounciation of §^ and §Ú ?

FROM:R. Chiang <chiangr@vancouver.quik.com>
- Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 01:11:17 (PD
SUBJECT:
Ancient pronouciation and classical Chinese
COMMENT:
Dear Julian: Let me elaborate on the antiquity of dialects from looking at the usage of words. Let me throw in a few examples: 1. In ¥v°O, pregnancy is called ¦³¨­. Hoklo still call pregnancy as "U-sin", instead of Ãh¥¥. 2. In ¥v°O, under X general's command is usually written as "À¸¤U" instead of "¾£¤U" These two characters are pronounced as "hi" and "hui" in Hoklo. 3. In ¶À«Ò¤º¸g, "after noon" is called "¤U­÷" In Hoklo, aftternoon is called "E-Po" 4. In ½×»y: ¤£ª¾¦Ñ¤§±N¦Ü, ¤ªº¸. You may wonder what "¤ªº¸" means. For Hoklo-speaking people, it is easy to understand ¤ªº¸ is pronounced "An-Ni" which means "¦p¦¹". It is commonly used at the end of sentence, sometimes as "¤fÀY»y." When I first read this sentence, I was amazed and thrilled at the closeness of Hoklo to ancient Chinese. 5. In Hoklo, son-in-law, contrary to Mandarin, is called "¤l´B" instead of "¤k´B". If you read the paragraph of ¥v°O about »¯¤ý, who is the son-in-law of the first emperor of Han dynasty ¼B¨¹. It was written as ¤l´B, not ¤k´B. 6. In Hoklo, ...¤], ....¥G?, .....¥¼?, .....§_? are well preserved in daily conversation. In fact, the classical Chinese (¤å¨¥¤å) was the ancient form of spoken Chinese (¥Õ¸Ü¤å). 7. In Hoklo, the cooking utensil is still called "¹© Tia" and chewing is still called "­÷ Po" as the original meaning in "©P¤½¦R­÷´¤¾v" These are just a few examples, and I can sit here typing whole night about numerous examples.
FROM:Stephen Hwang <formosa@webzone.net>
Tulsa, OK USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 21:24:15 (PD
SUBJECT:
´H¤s¦x¸Ö
COMMENT:
Dear Chiang:
For your interest, if you read ´H¤s¦x¸Ö in Mandarin (º¡¤j¤H), you will wonder why ¤ë, ¼ä, and »¡ don't seem to rhym. In Hoklo, they are pronounced as "goat", "kiat or kat", and "soat." So the rhym is "at."

FROM:Stephen Hwang <formosa@webzone.net>
Tulsa, OK USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 20:23:52 (PD
SUBJECT:
«Ø and °®
COMMENT:
Dear Chiang: These two characters are pronounced in same ways as in Hakka and Hoklo:«Ø as Kian (³±¥h¡band °® as Khian ¡a¶§¥­¡b
FROM:Stephen Hwang <formosa@webzone.net>
Tulsa, OK USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 20:04:11 (PD
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